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Quick, where's the Flux Capacitor!

 

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while you all have fun with my last comment, I have another thought. Like Icaillo, Savjac and others I've been wondering about how to setup instant A/B switching (if it is in fact a possibility), well then I found myself wondering - we've been attempting to discover differences in amps, cables/interconnects and how to measure those differences but I wonder..., has anyone setup two identical systems (as practical) and running each identical system with a two second delay (or so) for real time A/B comps. Just a thought.

One more thought: if electricity is as much about the passing of charged particles as it is about an EM energy wave then I suggest comparing a quad shielded power cord with a non shielded etc etc

Peace thru Compassion

Happy listening :wave:
Interesting idea, but the speakers could not occupy the same point in space, so their placement in the room will cause subtle differences in sound between them. You can never get to identical unless you go all the way to duplicating the entire room and then it is up to the human to jump between the two rooms as quickly as possible for the comparison. The human then becomes the A/B switch.
 

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Wayne, I would love it if could reach your goal of sight bias immunity. Unfortunately as males of the species, we are mainly sight driven, and responsive. The same way we respond to the female form, we respond to materials and textures. Much of our response to that is based on past experience and it's how we know what to expect from certain things. Like walking on thin ice, or even what sandpaper feels like. That's why IMO, it's imperative that test subjects are totally unaware. Self deception as you mentioned can not be allowed by us either as we are also ego-centric and must believe for the most part that we are "right". Obviously this goes much deeper.
Here's a link to a site with a great variety of tests and tones. You can test everything from subwoofer pitch definition to stereo imaging. I thought it was relevant here since there is a "blind" test area including 16/8 bit resolution tests, db sensitivity tests and even a polarity test. I used AirPlay, but a 3.5 to RCA and a laptop or phone would work. It's a fun way to test yourself and your gear. If you really want to know how good you are.
http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtestsaudiotesttones_index.php

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This is a fun one too.
https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html
Excellent point, who would want to live life absent the joys of sight bias?

Of course , I am talking about developing the ability to consciously temporarily deactivate, or ignore or work around it somehow. "That is one great looking amplifier, but if I take that out of the equation, does that amplifier really sound any different from the cheap-looking one?"
 

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Excellent point, who would want to live life absent the joys of sight bias?

Of course , I am talking about developing the ability to consciously temporarily deactivate, or ignore or work around it somehow. "That is one great looking amplifier, but if I take that out of the equation, does that amplifier really sound any different from the cheap-looking one?"
Oft times I wonder if this ability if you will, comes with time and boredom of trying out different components. If one becomes jaded enough after hearing both good and bad examples of pretty things, then maybe that bias will be kicked to the curb.
 

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I do not feel that you sound like you are behind the 8 ball, you just went into things a little deeper than what might be normal daily thoughts.
I have no idea what is going on in the cables but I do actually have several of them that are purported to be directional. There is a mark or tab on each end of the cables suggesting which is the sending end and which is the receiving end. I have read many articles that say once the cable is used in a certain direction it should not be reversed, kind of like tires.

I have them hooked the way they should be oriented, just in case, but when accidentally reversed and while not really listening in depth, I have heard no difference but then again my system or my ears may not be of enough quality to reproduce something like that. So it would appear that your post is not so far off base.
Unless the cable you're talking about is something like a redmere hdmi cable for extended distance, what cables are directional? Is there a shred of science behind such claims? Cannot believe it is anything but marketing nonsense from what I've read over the years.
 

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Interesting idea, but the speakers could not occupy the same point in space, so their placement in the room will cause subtle differences in sound between them. You can never get to identical unless you go all the way to duplicating the entire room and then it is up to the human to jump between the two rooms as quickly as possible for the comparison. The human then becomes the A/B switch.
How about a perfectly symmetrical room with a swivel chair?
 

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Unless the cable you're talking about is something like a redmere hdmi cable for extended distance, what cables are directional? Is there a shred of science behind such claims? Cannot believe it is anything but marketing nonsense from what I've read over the years.
I would Submit that this is the reason we are here discussing these conundrums. I have interconnects as well as speaker cable that are marked directionaly and I have been instructed to install them as per their marks. I have no clue if there's a shred of science behind such claims and the discussion herein is trying to find a higher truth as to whether or not this is marketing hype. I am going to try to come at this from the positive and say that these engineers that design these cables have a pretty good idea of what they're talking about, however, there is indeed the possibility that all of this is nonsense.
I don't want to write off these claims just because folks don't believe it, I would like to see proof either way beyond speculation.

Might you as a participant in these threads have any inside knowledge as to why you feel it is nothing more than marketing nonsense other than what you have read. In other words might you have any hands-on experience with this which would allow for a more reasonable basis to support your theory.
 

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How about a perfectly symmetrical room with a swivel chair?
I think on one hand that this would be wonderful and on the other hand this would be problematic. Imagine if you will the testers listening for 20 seconds in room "A" then spinning about 180° to listen to 20 seconds in room "B" and then repeating this fun carnival ride for hours on end. Personally I think this is a great idea if just a bit expensive for the average guy or gal. (Do you remember Enid Lumley ?)
 

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My turn.

There are parallels here with the seeking of Truth, as with spirituality for instance. Through AB testing we are trying to induce an experience in which The Listener is led to having no choice but to report the truth as accurately as his perceptions will allow.
Oops, wasn't done.

The Seeker of Truth benefits from honing the skill of being his own best critic, absent all signs of negativity, for the sake of the clearest possible thinking and reasoning processes. In my own life, I find myself applying this principle toward the seeking of Truth in audio with as much focus and enthusiasm as I do in the seeking of Truth in spirituality. It is a Wonder to me that one can be so dismissive of external evidence, in either of those realms of thought. But, Faith gives permission, and sometimes demands, that we believe and choose and report something to be true that is not in evidence in terms that are currently well understood. It is fascinating that a. faith can find its way into the thought and behavior patterns of hobbyists in an area like audio. And b. That Seekers of spiritual truth seem so often to have no room for critical thinking skills in their collection of Truth seeking tools.

One would think what evidence would be Paramount in the seeking of any kind of Truth. I can tell you that is not always the case.

I have probably said too much, hope that offends no one.
 

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Unless the cable you're talking about is something like a redmere hdmi cable for extended distance, what cables are directional? Is there a shred of science behind such claims? Cannot believe it is anything but marketing nonsense from what I've read over the years.
Without the burden of evidence, I must agree with this. I've used cables of all sizes and lengths, and applications and have never purposefully or accidentally seen or heard any difference. This could be due to the fact I wasn't looking because I wasn't expecting any difference. That I'll admit.
Maybe on a sub atomic level it would matter but I don't operate there so...

How about a perfectly symmetrical room with a swivel chair?
That's what I was thinking!



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I would Submit that this is the reason we are here discussing these conundrums. I have interconnects as well as speaker cable that are marked directionaly and I have been instructed to install them as per their marks. I have no clue if there's a shred of science behind such claims and the discussion herein is trying to find a higher truth as to whether or not this is marketing hype. I am going to try to come at this from the positive and say that these engineers that design these cables have a pretty good idea of what they're talking about, however, there is indeed the possibility that all of this is nonsense.

I don't want to write off these claims just because folks don't believe it, I would like to see proof either way beyond speculation.



Might you as a participant in these threads have any inside knowledge as to why you feel it is nothing more than marketing nonsense other than what you have read. In other words might you have any hands-on experience with this which would allow for a more reasonable basis to support your theory.

Maybe it's so people don't get lost behind their AV racks! J/K
My suspicion is that it related to the power of suggestion, and the idea that when you have something unique such as a cable that shows you which way to hook it up we feel it's somehow capable of more. To me, it's like putting arrows on a garden hose(ends notwithstanding) and expecting the water to flow differently. The Irony here is that maybe I'm the one who's wet!
I may not have inside knowledge per se but, my business built underwater cameras for a long time. We sourced cables of all kinds on spools of untold lengths. Even the tiniest cables that we would solder to delicate wafer boards didn't care which end was which. Just like it doesn't matter what direction the satellite cable feeding my house is going. Or the 25,000 feet of cat5 that's in my house doesn't care.
Jack, I know that's not the science you were looking for but maybe my broad strokes can help. If there really is more to this, I'd be quite receptive to the see evidence.
Ok, I feel like my clutch is slipping now. Lol
This has turned into quite thread indeed!


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I would Submit that this is the reason we are here discussing these conundrums. I have interconnects as well as speaker cable that are marked directionaly and I have been instructed to install them as per their marks. I have no clue if there's a shred of science behind such claims and the discussion herein is trying to find a higher truth as to whether or not this is marketing hype. I am going to try to come at this from the positive and say that these engineers that design these cables have a pretty good idea of what they're talking about, however, there is indeed the possibility that all of this is nonsense.
I don't want to write off these claims just because folks don't believe it, I would like to see proof either way beyond speculation.

Might you as a participant in these threads have any inside knowledge as to why you feel it is nothing more than marketing nonsense other than what you have read. In other words might you have any hands-on experience with this which would allow for a more reasonable basis to support your theory.
Well my basic understanding is that the audio signal is AC in nature, which means flow goes in both directions constantly, so how could it make a difference? I've read comments from quite a few electrical engineers who say its nonsense to boot. Let's turn it around, why do you think this directionality has some basis in fact? Have you read some of the nonsense these cable marketers come up with aside from directionality? Its snake oil as far as I can tell and that seems to be the opinion of those who study such things. No science/proof/tests from the cable guys, just claims so I tend to simply see it as nonsense. Can you name any engineers involved with this science of directionality? I seriously doubt the engineering of a cable goes beyond choosing gauge/dielectric and other usual factors, but the marketing department comes up with the direction stuff.

Any engineers out there that can comment?
 

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Assuming you know the design of the cables and the system and everything is symmetrical, you would probably be making a safe assumption that a difference in directionality is not possible. Some manufacturers intentionally build their cables to be asymmetrical. One way that it can make a difference is if the cable has a shield that is connected only at one end. Typically you would want the shield connected at the source end, but I would say you want it connected in the direction that gives the lowest noise and/or ground current. Some cables actually have matching components built into them. Depending on how they are designed and the length of the cable they may actually be legitimately directional.

I don't think that there is much value to these designs, and mostly the differences are likely irrelevant in most cases. My point is that we should not assume we know everything and we should not make assumptions about variables we don't fully understand. It is not scientific to assume no effect before knowing the whole story. The only intellectually honest way to approach these questions is to take the perspective that Wayne has...find someone who is certain that they have products that have a difference then assume there is a difference to find. If you exhaust every imaginable way to duplicate the effect and still don't find anything, then there probably is not a difference that is not accounted for by expectation bias or other psychological phenomena. It could be that we also have not thought of everything.

Science is full of research that proves nothing and comes to conclusions that are faulty because the experimenter made assumptions about variables that might have explained things differently. Starting with a belief that you don't admit and that you don't experimentally control for is not good science.
 

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Maybe it's so people don't get lost behind their AV racks! J/K
My suspicion is that it related to the power of suggestion, and the idea that when you have something unique such as a cable that shows you which way to hook it up we feel it's somehow capable of more. To me, it's like putting arrows on a garden hose(ends notwithstanding) and expecting the water to flow differently. The Irony here is that maybe I'm the one who's wet!
I may not have inside knowledge per se but, my business built underwater cameras for a long time. We sourced cables of all kinds on spools of untold lengths. Even the tiniest cables that we would solder to delicate wafer boards didn't care which end was which. Just like it doesn't matter what direction the satellite cable feeding my house is going. Or the 25,000 feet of cat5 that's in my house doesn't care.
Jack, I know that's not the science you were looking for but maybe my broad strokes can help. If there really is more to this, I'd be quite receptive to the see evidence.
Ok, I feel like my clutch is slipping now. Lol
This has turned into quite thread indeed!


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Willis my friend, I am indeed open to all trains of thought bit philosophical or scientific in order to move my beliefs forward from a place of "I don't know". As I had mentioned early on in this thread is my strong belief that I can hear difference between some cables and that I would like to someday be able to fill in a database of sorts that would tell me to some extent what specific makeup, winding, dielectric or whatever is involved in these items can produce a certain type of sound. For example I noted with interest that the original monster cable which was made up of numerous very fine threads of copper reacted in a certain way that was different than a solid core copper speaker cable. I don't know why it is just my belief that it happens. Further I'm really not sure if all speaker cable manufactured similarly to the monster original will have the same sensibilities. My specialty over the last 36 years has been in causality with specialties in metallurgy and machinery. It almost everything there is indeed a truth howsoever well hidden that theoretically with sufficient investigation training, testing and having fellows examine your findings the truth shall be set free. I believe that in using your broad strokes there are hundreds of thousands of reviews over the years that present findings wherein the reviewer has indeed heard differences in any given item within an audio system. Conversely there are probably hundreds of thousands of good people out there that would swear they do not hear the difference in these components, as such it would seem a very daunting matter to overcome when looking at it from a very large view, i.e. all components, however maybe just looking at one or two components might result in a better understanding of where the truth might lie. It's easy to proclaim Occam's razor which states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected, As being the ruler by which we should measure our findings however in this case I don't know which side would have the fewer assumptions sense it would appear there may not be a legitimate and conclusive proof of our findings. Please note I say findings are not sure beliefs is the right word to cover all of this.

So stand proud with your thoughts of broad strokes as its these type of entries that motor us down the path of discovery, While all the while keeping in mind the wisdom of the sage lyricist Mr. Graeme edge whom wrote the following very deep bit of information:

"I think, therefore I am....I think" "Of course you are my bright little star, I've miles and miles Of files, Pretty files of your forefather's fruit and now to suit our great computer, You're magnetic ink."

" I'm more than that, I know I am, at least, I think I must be."

"There you go man, keep as cool as you can. Face piles And piles Of trials With smiles. It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave And keep on thinking free."
 
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