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I wrote this at about 2am - my bad - the rca referenced is/was meant to be a speak-on. Sorry I don't proof read.
As far as where i got the info, well its readily available, I only mentioned the general categories, that was enough for me.

Actually the only potential benefit to speaker cable directionality IMHO is after speaker cable mod's it might help with assessing any benefit to mod's if the cables remain in identical orientation.
 

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I think you have a point there as many folks believe there are difference so if the cables are always installed in the same direction no one can come back and say.....maybe things sound different because the cables were not properly installed.
 

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I think you have a point there as many folks believe there are difference so if the cables are always installed in the same direction no one can come back and say.....maybe things sound different because the cables were not properly installed.
Yes exactly and that I don't try to convince myself there is or is not a diff.
Wow, this conversation was restarted about the time I signed-on in 2009 and is still moving in a tentative poss direction and more important individuals including myself are inclined to discover a true scientific approach in testing variables. For some of you old timers the conversation includes brainstorming and creating hypothesis and even mention of theories. I don't believe this is a simple answer like I felt in 2009 - I'm not even sure why I thought the diff in amps was obvious I don't ever remember ever wondering before that time.

One extreme theory when observed in its entirety leads me to question myself "The Heisenberg Uncertainty theory." Heisenberg himself presents the "Observer Effect" as another potential reason for mathematical differences in any measured phenomena and reason to doubt any listening/listener perceived experience otherwise not accounted for..., is there no answer. Maybe the best we can do is simply "enjoy our creations"
 

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Nah, i'll follow this topic until we discover a foundational solution to build upon in successive approximations. :heehee: :grin2:
 

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Hahaha! Good point! My Yamaha amp has been engineered for great handling, so this is less a concern for me but others may benefit.
Reminds me of a gal that used to clean my office. She saw an extension cord on the floor, and promptly picked up, and propped it so it was facing up, and then explained that all the electricity would escape if it were to lay on the ground. Wow, laughed about that one a lot.


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They're crawling out of the woodwork now! You can't make this stuff up... I once knew a rookie engineer who became frustrated while debugging a rack of automated test equipment. My not-so-kind-hearted colleagues decided to prank him by suggesting cable routing was to blame. Taking the bait, Mr. One-Sandwich-Shy-of-a-Picnic asked how that could be, to which they replied: "Cabling needs to run vertically so the electrons flow downhill." I'm unsure how he ever survived on the factory floor, but his cables always ran vertically from then on! In retrospect, I think he was hired by a relative.
 

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Nah, i'll follow this topic until we discover a foundational solution to build upon in successive approximations. :heehee: :grin2:
If you keep halving the distance between your starting point and your destination, you'll theoretically never arrive. In practice, however, you're close enough that it doesn't matter. Unlike those who say changing cables doesn't matter, there are some who believe in cumulative conjunction - my term, I know. It means that a single cable pair may make no difference, but swapping out all cables for ones of the same brand, metallurgy, geometry, etc. is key to exposing their subtleties, imagined or not.

EDIT: I should have said "may be key" instead of "is key".
 

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I've heard of that metallurgy thing..., seems to me some of the Japanese cable/interconnect companies are producing test results that show diff - do you suppose they are only saying that to charge higher prices for cables? That's just brilliant - I wish I had thought of that. So you just sit in this lonely cubicle all day and think of these things..., oh and how to add a little magic to someone' life when predisposed to magical thinking. :R >:)
 

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I wonder how hard it would be to create a cable design that showed some measured difference due to termination impedance or something like that, even though audible difference was small or none at all?

Another thought, I wonder how hard it would be to create a cable design that made the sound WORSE than normal when it was hooked up backwards, and sounded normal (i.e. better) when hooked up in the prescribed manner?
 

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Ah, Zeno's Dichotomy Paradox... I once used this as an excuse to be late to my calculus class in high school. The teacher was simultaneously Amused and Not Amused, even after I opened the door. Take that, Schrodinger!

It's buried in the thread farther back than I want to dig... but the issue Lou raised with my choice of the word "decent" is fair, and perhaps "reference" would have been a better word. What I was driving at was that the test system needs to meet some minimum level of quality, but need not be prohibitively expensive. We obviously don't want to test cables using a bunch of Targ-Mart House Brand gear, but it also shouldn't be necessary to step completely outside the systems any of us have built for our own purposes.

If the argument from cable manufacturers/marketers is that their cables make a huge difference when integrated into "my" system, then the entity that conducts the test shouldn't need to go to any more trouble than any of us have in order to construct a system of sufficient quality to experience the difference or lack of difference the cables claim to make. Granted, some of us have gone to more trouble than others... but essentially, any of us could conduct a scientifically valid test to determine the effect of various cables in comparison to others.
 

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I agree totally about decreasing the distance but I'm not sure if it is always by .5 between point A and the destination..., I'm not sure this is algorithmic or voodoo numerology phenomena - not sure phi could be ruled out entirely though..., the aesthetic is mostly subjective in this case all the same, it all depends on who is listening and how and what to and where and when.??

P.D. Oespensky(The Psychology of Mans Possible Evolution, 1910) wrote about four levels of consciousness - the last two subjective and finally objective. Oespensky explains the subjective experience must be understood completely before being able to become objective in reality, fully lucid..., a PhD and M.D. and time to assimilate the info, but by that time their hearing is gone - so what's the point, right.

It may not be a requirement but for my own satisfaction many hours of listening is/was a requisite for music appreciation. I was happy with my sub/sat system in the 80's but I had not yet experienced 5.1. I keep thinking about Atmos but I mostly listen to music using the front three speakers. I'm just slow..., methodical... :innocent:
 

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Yes exactly and that I don't try to convince myself there is or is not a diff.
Wow, this conversation was restarted about the time I signed-on in 2009 and is still moving in a tentative poss direction and more important individuals including myself are inclined to discover a true scientific approach in testing variables. For some of you old timers the conversation includes brainstorming and creating hypothesis and even mention of theories. I don't believe this is a simple answer like I felt in 2009 - I'm not even sure why I thought the diff in amps was obvious I don't ever remember ever wondering before that time.

One extreme theory when observed in its entirety leads me to question myself "The Heisenberg Uncertainty theory." Heisenberg himself presents the "Observer Effect" as another potential reason for mathematical differences in any measured phenomena and reason to doubt any listening/listener perceived experience otherwise not accounted for..., is there no answer. Maybe the best we can do is simply "enjoy our creations"
I am not so sure that we are not opening the doors to the barn before the horse is actually born. I sincerely believe that we all have to listen before we can hear in other words we need to be educated and how to observe and in this case listen to anything before we can actually hear what were talking about. One cannot jump into the cockpit of a Navy fighter and expect to start fly and land the plane without some sort of intense training or experience over a long period of time.


The same the analogy tends to go for audio as well. If we were to plug-in new speaker cables for example what should we hear that would give us some insight into what is going on. Not only are our systems capable of resolving these differences are gears have to be capable of recognizing these differences. Does one cable allow the music to roll over you better than the other cable, does one cable put performance in a better musical perspective, does one cable just make you happier listing to what to listen to than the other. There's many different perspectives that must be considered when putting forth an opinion on any of these things.

The least effective of the opinions I have seen are based on people's beliefs that it must be snake oil or must be marketing issues. Either way I get the feeling that the people that call everybody else out for being able to hear a difference show a significant amount of hubris for never even listening. I would like to be able to get a better handle on how to listen what to listen for and in time more of us could then here what is being presented. Now not everything will make a difference in that may be our ears are rooms or equipment is just not up to it and in that case we've reached a point where we really don't need to go much further but may be in a different direction ? Having such a great group of folks that are following this thread can seriously lead us to some positive answers and possibly even some possible ways to find out what makes these differences happen. Some differences are there, oh boy they are, so why not worked together to figure out what's going on?
 

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I am not so sure that we are not opening the doors to the barn before the horse is actually born. I sincerely believe that we all have to listen before we can hear in other words we need to be educated and how to observe and in this case listen to anything before we can actually hear what were talking about. One cannot jump into the cockpit of a Navy fighter and expect to start fly and land the plane without some sort of intense training or experience over a long period of time.


The same the analogy tends to go for audio as well. If we were to plug-in new speaker cables for example what should we hear that would give us some insight into what is going on. Not only are our systems capable of resolving these differences are gears have to be capable of recognizing these differences. Does one cable allow the music to roll over you better than the other cable, does one cable put performance in a better musical perspective, does one cable just make you happier listing to what to listen to than the other. There's many different perspectives that must be considered when putting forth an opinion on any of these things.

The least effective of the opinions I have seen are based on people's beliefs that it must be snake oil or must be marketing issues. Either way I get the feeling that the people that call everybody else out for being able to hear a difference show a significant amount of hubris for never even listening. I would like to be able to get a better handle on how to listen what to listen for and in time more of us could then here what is being presented. Now not everything will make a difference in that may be our ears are rooms or equipment is just not up to it and in that case we've reached a point where we really don't need to go much further but may be in a different direction ? Having such a great group of folks that are following this thread can seriously lead us to some positive answers and possibly even some possible ways to find out what makes these differences happen. Some differences are there, oh boy they are, so why not worked together to figure out what's going on?

The barn analogy doesn't work much for me.

The least effective posts for me are those who assume the marketers must have a valid point, despite tons of science to the contrary. Audiophiles are called audiophools for a very good reason. IMHO.
 

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I am not so sure that we are not opening the doors to the barn before the horse is actually born. I sincerely believe that we all have to listen before we can hear in other words we need to be educated and how to observe and in this case listen to anything before we can actually hear what were talking about. One cannot jump into the cockpit of a Navy fighter and expect to start fly and land the plane without some sort of intense training or experience over a long period of time.


The same the analogy tends to go for audio as well. If we were to plug-in new speaker cables for example what should we hear that would give us some insight into what is going on. Not only are our systems capable of resolving these differences are gears have to be capable of recognizing these differences. Does one cable allow the music to roll over you better than the other cable, does one cable put performance in a better musical perspective, does one cable just make you happier listing to what to listen to than the other. There's many different perspectives that must be considered when putting forth an opinion on any of these things.

The least effective of the opinions I have seen are based on people's beliefs that it must be snake oil or must be marketing issues. Either way I get the feeling that the people that call everybody else out for being able to hear a difference show a significant amount of hubris for never even listening. I would like to be able to get a better handle on how to listen what to listen for and in time more of us could then here what is being presented. Now not everything will make a difference in that may be our ears are rooms or equipment is just not up to it and in that case we've reached a point where we really don't need to go much further but may be in a different direction ? Having such a great group of folks that are following this thread can seriously lead us to some positive answers and possibly even some possible ways to find out what makes these differences happen. Some differences are there, oh boy they are, so why not worked together to figure out what's going on?
I agree we have a long way to go in so many ways. I don't believe for a minute the answer is simply"...not everybody can hear a difference" nor "people in possession of their senses are not hearing a difference." There is a good group here and I believe most observe as I do the breadth and depth of info as advisement as we go about our daily lives. I only hope in this case we trip over something in our discussion that leads to better testing parameters, newer measuring tech/equip, detailed questionnaires (better data gathering) for observations GTG's

Bottom line - I hear differences without making changes to my system - I hear subtle changes in music repro beyond recording quality and mastering ability, the same recording will sound different from one day to the next or it can. But I believe this has been discussed already..., there is the mind/brain conundrum.
 

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The barn analogy doesn't work much for me.

The least effective posts for me are those who assume the marketers must have a valid point, despite tons of science to the contrary. Audiophiles are called audiophools for a very good reason. IMHO.
Interesting lovin, I am not speaking about marketers and never have. I am really not one to believe all that junk as anything more than hype and maybe in some cases downright mis-information. Also I dont consider myself an audiophile, but rather a guy on a journey.
 

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(...) Audiophiles are called audiophools for a very good reason. IMHO.
I little bit hard here. Maybe I can help.

Dear forumers,
I cleaned the walls and the ceiling of our home theater room this morning. To recompense myself for a well done job, I listened my favorite sound track "Pirates of the Caribbean"
Guess what:yikes: I heard a difference in the sound! Can you believe it!!?? Not only walls and ceiling was brighter and more colorefull but also were my basses and mid fr and HF of my beloved system! The SS&I was better too.!!
I was a clean wall atheist !!>:):x

More seriously as Savjac said : "Some differences are there, oh boy they are, so why not worked together to figure out what's going on?"
 
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