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I just applied my first coat of 1:1 LBVS + Behr 1850 and it is surprisingly white. Will see final result tomorrow!!!
Yes, at N9 C&S is a very light gray mix. My test batch of the Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel/LBVS 1:1 mix (which should be the same as using Behr #1850) was even a little lighter at N9.2.

C&S mixes have always been about having a bright screen while giving a little help with contrast for PJ's that need that; they have never been about helping with ambient light problems - they just aren't dark enough for that.
 

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Would it help to use a neutral light gray base instead of white to combine with LBVS to make the screen a little darker and still have good whites?
 

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Would it help to use a neutral light gray base instead of white to combine with LBVS to make the screen a little darker and still have good whites?
Hi Bram!

Welcome to the Shack!

In theory, yes, adding a neutral gray paint should make the mix darker while keeping the mix neutral. A neutral added to a neutral produces a neutral. What is unknown is how it affects the reflectiveness of the mix. However; starting with a neutral gray base to make C&S wouldn't work since the metallic silver paints used depend on the white paint NOT being neutral (they are a bit "warm" in color) to counteract the slight blue color of the silver paints.

C&S mixes made with Craft Smart Metallic Silver can have a fair amount of gray paint added and still produce a mix with screen gain above that color of gray paint alone, but I don't know how the Liquitex BASICS VALUE Silver will react to such dilution.

As I have said in several other posts I've been so busy this summer I haven't had a chance to properly test mixes like Cream&Sugar International. I hope that will change shortly.

If they prove out, I also hope to have two new mixes based on these experiments; one that uses CSMS for North America and one using LBVS for the rest of the world.

All these mixes are still very much in the testing phase, that is why they are being discussed here in the Developers forum instead of the main Screens forum.
 

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Hi Don,

You are so right. First is to make an European C&S with the right white. For the mix with LBVS you used
Behr UPW (249 249 245) . For C&S Luminous White (247 247 242) is used. For NCS Colors there's "S 0300-N" (245.82 244.88 241.07). A little more grayish overall with a little more red

For Scorpion N8.0 There's a 50:50 BW and C&S. For a Scorpion N8.5 there's a different mix with only 17% BW and more white than normal C&S. With BW mixed with too much white the effect of the aluminium particles is fast decreasing, does the 17% BW with just 3,5% of the total mix being AAA much more than a neutral gray of N7.5 with bringing reflectiveness on the wall? Otherwise your suggestion of adding gray paint looks a lot easier and cheaper. A darker gray (almost black 10 10 10) would darken C&S more than a lighter gray with less diluting i presume

I'm enthusiastic about DIY-paint. Reading a few hours a day last week. I used to project to a (sort of) white wall with structure but now it's time for a real screen. Just letting my thoughts free here:mooooh:
 

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The NCS color you noted looks like it would work well for making C&S Int., but we won't really know until someone actually makes a small amount and sends either mech or I a sample to test for brightness and neutrality. Thanks for looking that color up Bram! :T

At the moment, I can't remember if anyone has made a screen using Scorpion N8.5 or not. It is a bit of the "odd man out" of our mixes since many parts of it must actually be measured, but at least it is in larger amounts and not down to the milliliter as with some mixes at other forums.

I have never tested the Scorpion N8.5 mix so I can't speak authoritatively on it, but even at a low percentage I would think there would be a visible difference between adding a neutral gray paint and adding BW. Aluminum is a powerful reflector. I'll talk to mech about Scorpion N8.5 and get back to you. At this point I'm not sure if a Scorpion mix using C&S Int. is feasible or not.
 

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I wouldn't mix up a Scorpion mix with C&S Int. just yet. We haven't even finalized the international C&S version yet and no one has mixed any up (Sorpions + Int C&S) and measured it. So it's an unknown. When we're near the end I'm hoping custy will try them out with European alternatives to check for neutrality. That's when we'll know for sure and recommend them. :T
 

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LBVS uses titanium dioide coated mica. Smart Craft uses different ingredients for reflectivity? I tried to post a link to the PDF with the infor from LVBS but are not allowed to post links yet.. there goed my whole message :wits-end: Looking foreward to the test results of the sample C&S International :daydream:
 

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LBVS uses titanium dioide coated mica. Smart Craft uses different ingredients for reflectivity? I tried to post a link to the PDF with the infor from LVBS but are not allowed to post links yet.. there goed my whole message :wits-end: Looking foreward to the test results of the sample C&S International :daydream:
Yes, CSMS does not use mica, but rather some form of aluminum coated flake. This was demonstrated by a user at another forum who needed a screen that retained light polarization so he could use it for watching true 3D movies. He was recommended by others to try various mica-based paint mixes and when he did NONE of them worked! They ALL lost polarization in the reflected image. Mica depolarizes light.

When he tried using AAA-F (pure aluminum flakes) the screen worked, the same when another oil-based aluminum paint was used. When CSMS was tried it kept a lot of the polarization, but not quite as much as the real solid aluminum flakes of the AAA-F.

Also, the prismatic effect (breaking up white light into colors) of mica is not seen in CSMS.

What has been found is that even a mica-based paint can be used as the reflective element in a screen mix when it's negative aspects are controlled by adding enough opaque paint.

Custy has been trying different white paints available to him in the U.K. to mix C&S Int. and the results are not as favorable as I had hoped. He is seeing a difference in both shade and reflective characteristics so it seems that just any white paint won't do. I have ordered some Liquitex BASICS Value Titanium White which I hope will solve that problem. We'll see...

One of the problems with using an artist paint as a screen paint is cost; artist paints are more expensive that the average house paint here in the U.S., and I'm assuming the rest of the world. Luckily, there are a number of on-line stores selling Liquitex at large discounts (over 50% off retail!), so the price does drop down close to using a high or medium quality latex house paint. For example, Dick Blick is selling a quart of Liquitex BASICS Value Titanium White for less than $15 which is less than the same amount of some of the Behr paints commonly used to make screen mixes. The Liquitex is really about the same price though when you add shipping charges to it and local sales tax to the Behr. I'm truly hoping those folks outside the U.S. can also find such discounts for Liquitex.
 

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I stumbled across Createx Auto Air Fine White Metallic while looking for Auto Air Aluminum Fine. It made me stop to wonder if any one has ever tried it out as a substitute for Craft Smart Silver. If its anywhere near as potent as AAA Fine.... then it might be worth looking into. From the way Auto Air categorizes it, it would appear that it isn't pearl based. Auto Air has a whole series that they refer to as pearls, and a series that they refer to as metallic. Clearly this is the latter.

Just wondering if anyone has experimented with it as a possible Craft Smart Silver substitute yet?
 

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Good find David, but I've looked into AA Metallic White and according to it's MSDS it does contain mica.



I think I got some to test and I could clearly see the prismatic effect of mica in it; I'll have to double check that though.

http://cdn.dickblick.com/msds/DBH_253111564.pdf

While we haven't found a non-mica "white" reflective agent yet that doesn't mean it's not out there somewhere. Keep looking! :T
 

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Bummer, that's too bad.

As I mentioned earlier, I am working on replicating the Stewart Greyhawk RS G3 in the form of a screen paint. I had my local Lowes scan a sample of it under their X-Rite to determine a paint mix that matches its general color.

The machine came back with the following formula, based on a gallon of Ultra White IFE...
101 (Black) 53
107 (yellow oxide) 16
109 (red oxide) 4

Then I had them scan a sample of BJA in Valspar Ultra White in a 5:1 ratio.
The tint equivalent for that was...
101-40
102 (blue)- 3.5

Craft Smart Silver in Valspar Ultra White at a 3:7 ratio came back as follows...
101- 13.5
102- 2

So, the presence of the blue in the BJA & CSS codes tells me that an accurate Gray Hawk mix cannot be achieved using either of those two reflectants. However, the GrayHawk codes led me to believe that a screen paint might be successfully formulated, using a gold or white reflective additive. (That's why I was looking at Auto Air Metallic White).

Next I made test panels with Craft Smart Gold, Craft Smart Bronze, and a few other gold craft paints made by Plaid (manufacturer of Craft Smart), searching for a suitable gold reflectant. Unfortunately, none of them exhibited notable visible sparkle once added to a white base... so I have to assume that they would not be effective in a screen paint.

Anyone out there have any suggestions on what might make a suitable gold or champagne reflectant? I was on the TRG Global website and their description of Gold Xyrellic Pearls caught my attention. They claim that they are the most highly reflective pearls available.... and they were also described as "non-interference" pearls. Anyone out there ever experimented with them?
 

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First off David, if you have the tint names for the Lowe's tint numbers would you please post them? I keep forgetting to get them when I got to Lowe's. :blush:

About duplicating the G-3, I found the following in a quick Internet search (bolding mine):
The G-3 is not a substrate revision, it is an optical coating revision. We've developed the ability to apply a smoother grained surface optical coating, while preserving and slightly increasing the viewing cone.

The SST is a further revision of the optical coating, same substrate, but a different balance of pigmentation to widen the cone, reduce the net size further of the angular reflective elements, so that the coating is not visible until you are close enough to see the pixel grid on a 1080p projector. In doing so, the gain is reduced a bit. The gain is 1.1 and you need to have the horsepower to light it. I would venture to say that it looks best at 100" and smaller with the outputs of the 1080p projectors I've tested with it, which include some favorites here.

The higher gain can make the screen a bit more visible at shorter viewing distances. The G-3 is a bit better at rejecting ambient light as well.

Gain of the G-3 is 1.25 on axis, with a 28 degree half-gain. The revised fabrics are all smoother, and thus suited to high resolution projectors. It's a really nice flat planar surface, not as rough as our previous Firehawk or Studiotek.

The point is that the G-3 has an optical coating; when such are measured with a spectrophotometer only part of the story is revealed and PJ light reflected from the screen must be measured as well to get the real picture of how the screen performs.

Rather than exactly match the color of a G-3, I would go about it by finding out what N-Value the G-3 was and then try to make up a mix that had the same shade (while remaining neutral) and reflective qualities. I suspect, depending on how dark the G-3 is (I've never seen one) that either AAA-F or CSMS could be used; the secret is to neutralize the color of the mix after finding the reflective qualities you want.

Depending on how advanced the tech is in the screen optical coating it might be very difficult, or impossible, to replicate in a simple DIY mix. The dnp Supernova is an example of this. There are processes that commercial screen manufacturers do that we can not. In this case it's a question of does the advantage such a screen has over lower cost commercial screens and DIY screen mixes really justify the price difference?

Besides taking your screen mix samples to Lowe's or Home Depot, I would be glad to take spectro readings of them. They would give you much more info than a simple paint formula does. ;) I need about a square inch sample to measure.

Do you mean that Craft Smart Metallic Gold and Bronze don't show up in your mixes like the Silver does? Or are you using less of them in a mix?

Another paint to try is Palmer Metallics. Custy found them in the U.K., but they are actually made in the U.S. The silver darkens white paint more than CSMS, but it has visible sparkle even at 10:1! http://www.thecraftshoponline.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=20&idproduct=3952

I never heard of the Kustom Shop Xyrellic Pearl's before. Interesting stuff! I missed where they were described as "non-interference" colors, but the fact that they are not made with mica is a plus.

Xyrellic pearls are based on aluminum dioxide particles sized from 5-30 microns then coated with highly refracted metal oxides.

What would concern me the most is particle size; 30 micron is getting pretty big for a reflective flake. The reason we abandoned AAA-Medium is because we were seeing a few sparkles from normal viewing distance. At $29.95 for 2 oz. it's a bit pricey as well, but could be worth it if it works well. I'm also still confused if this is a premixed paint or just a powder. If it's paint, is it water-based? http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/kspearlxp.aspx
 

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I am saying that the gold and bronze versions of Craft Smart do no exhibit any visible sparkle when mixed 30%:70% with Valspar Interior Flat enamel. I prepared a small test panel of each of them last night, to test for sparkle. Compared to the Craft Smart silver, they have almost no visible sparkle after being mixed with Valspar. Maybe the C&S formula using them with Valspar Ultra White base, needs to be re-thought. It may be the most neutral, but an educated guess says that it is probably the least reflective as well. My tests show that the Silver Craft Smart is the only one that exhibits notable sparkle when mixed into Valspar IFE.

As for the "non-interference" part of the Xyrellic pearls... maybe I read that somewhere other than the TCP Global website. I have found them in several places. Sherwin Williams and a few other automotive paint stores sell their version of them as well. I lose track of some of the websites I research on, due to the fact that I'm often up reading them late at night and usually a bit tired. I'm fairly sure that I read that about them, as it was the part that caught my attention. I could be wrong though.:daydream: At $29 per 2oz, they are pricey. But if they allowed for a breakthrough in DIY screen quality, it would be worth it. Still a lot cheaper than a Stewart screen. Possibly, some of the other sources have them finer than 30microns. How many microns would be ideal for our purposes? I was under the impression that it is sold in dry powder form.

I'd be happy to send you the Stewart screen samples I have, if you want to spectro them. It is a single 8 1\2 by 11 card that has 2inch samples of Stewart's top 6 screens glued to it. I would definitely need to get it back ASAP though. Just pm me your address, and I'd be happy to drop it in the mail. I also have some interesting samples from www.Paintonscreen.com and Digital Image that I'd like to reverse engineer as well. I'd be happy to send them along also.
 

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I just checked out the link to the Palmer Metallics. Maybe their gold version, sparkles better than Craft Smart's. Goes to reason that it might, if their silver is as potent as you say it is. I'll probably order a bottle of each to play around with. If it does, then it might make a better valspar C&S, than the gold/bronze Craft Smart formula. Of course it begins to defeat the purpose of simplicity. I found that mixing C&S with Valspar tinted to "Refinement" is actually the easiest way around shelling out for overpriced SW Luminous White.
 

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When I was doing the testing of the C&S formulae I had a composite screen of all three plus a Kilz2 panel and one of the RSMM mix that Mississippiman posted. It's in this post. C&S #1 was slightly brighter than the #2 and #3 mixes, but it also measured a bit brighter with the spectro so that was expected. The next time I get to Michael's I'll get some more CSM Gold and Bronze. I hope they didn't change the paint!

I believe that when I ordered my Palmer silver I also got some gold and bronze (or copper), so I'll look into that. Oy! So much to do and so little free time! :wits-end: :)

You are also right about trying to keep things simple. Simple is good! :T

As for the Xyrellic pearls, it could go either way. They may be coated like mica is (an interference layer of metallic oxide on top of the mica flake) or it could be a metallic oxide that is reflecting directly off it's surface and not the boundary layer with the aluminum dioxide. Either way, it should be better than coated mica which lets light pass totally through and thus refracts it like a prism.





As for micron sizes for flakes, I would say 10 and below would be ideal. Most of the pearl and metallic paints or additives for automotive use are larger than this because the flakes are designed to be seen from a distance and give a glitter effect. Good for cars, bad for screens. :nerd:

Thanks for the offer of the loan of your Stewart samples, but I probably should break down and get my own. I need to get samples from the other manufactures as well. Oh what the hey... send me whatever samples you want measured and I'll try to have them back in the mail to you the day after I receive them. :T I'll PM you my address.
 

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I have a Stewart Greyhawk RS G3. If you want to match it diy, take a look at the Shack's first diy mix. :whistling: I'm a tad bit skeptical of the 1.25 gain claim.... :sneeky:

I'm gonna double check my Greyhawk sample tonight. Cause you two got me scratching my head about it. Also, the spectro readings for it are in the Commercial Spectrum Readings thread. Haven't gotten around to reflective measures yet.
 

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Kustom Shop also sells their Xyrellic pearls on Ebay. The Ebay description actually indicates that they are in a liquid suspension. Not sure if it is water or oil though??

There is also another Ebay seller (thecoatingstore) offering Xyrellic pearls. They told me that their pearls are suspended in a base that mixes well into either water or oil based paints equally well. Not sure how that can be, but I'll take their word on it. Here's the link to their auction...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p2761.l1259&item=270428809573&viewitem=
 
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