Home Theater Forum and Systems banner

Ten Biggest Audio Lies: Agree or Disagree (If you disagree, you must explain why!) Votes are public!

201 - 220 of 287 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
1. The cable lie.

This one shows complete ignorance. There is much more to cables than simple resistance, inductance, and capacitance.
I will never forget the look on your face the night we met and I changed your world. :eek:lddude:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
310 Posts
I could really tell about what i found a lie or not but after seeing someone defending that there's " There is much more to cables than simple resistance, inductance, and capacitance. " and that user name having the " Sponsor " all over it ... i might believe that Santa really exists .
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
I could really tell about what i found a lie or not but after seeing someone defending that there's " There is much more to cables than simple resistance, inductance, and capacitance. " and that user name having the " Sponsor " all over it ... i might believe that Santa really exists .
Oh, good grief! Do you think that a person that does not believe/know this to be true would have a company building cables?

The reason that there is "Sponsor" on his post is because he (and I, for whatever it is worth) has built a business that relies on customer satisfaction to survive.

I can't speak for Danny. I can tell you that I have built a company selling proprietary power conditioners that took me years to develop. I also sell power cables, some of which are very expensive. My products have a Lifetime Warranty and a 30 Day Unconditional 100% Moneyback Return Policy. My TOTAL product return percentage is less than 0.4%. What does that tell you? Are hundreds of satisfied customers completely daft?

One of the reasons that sites like HTS exist is due to the sponsorship and donations from small business men like Danny and me. This gives everyone a chance to share experiences or merely have an opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
310 Posts
Oh, good grief! Do you think that a person that does not believe/know this to be true would have a company building cables?

The reason that there is "Sponsor" on his post is because he (and I, for whatever it is worth) has built a business that relies on customer satisfaction to survive.

I can't speak for Danny. I can tell you that I have built a company selling proprietary power conditioners that took me years to develop. I also sell power cables, some of which are very expensive. My products have a Lifetime Warranty and a 30 Day Unconditional 100% Moneyback Return Policy. My TOTAL product return percentage is less than 0.4%. What does that tell you? Are hundreds of satisfied customers completely daft?

One of the reasons that sites like HTS exist is due to the sponsorship and donations from small business men like Danny and me. This gives everyone a chance to share experiences or merely have an opinion.
You know .. you just have lost your argument by stating " I also sell power cables, some of which are very expensive " sorry to tell you but this is the same marketing line has Bose or Monster Cables . It's funny that you bring the " One of the reasons that sites like HTS exist is due to the sponsorship and donations " Let me ask you the other way around would your company existed without marketing ? Big companies invest today more in marketing that they invest in product development but i can understand this since its simple economics .

Now i ask you ... are the costumers that buy truth Monoprice or Blue Jeans Cable wrong ? It's up to us as consumers to decide what's best for us and that will work ( BTW i never bought nothing on Monoprice or Blue Jeans but i know a lot of guys that did it and are very happy with it ) , if your product return is less than 0.4% good for you .

I do believe that are company's that build better cables or power cables but that they will have a influence how the sound or the power reaches from point A to B ..... no .

As guitar player and being around recording studios i can only give you my experience and has i read somewhere around this same tread can confirm this . In a studio all the cables used will always be the same we just want them to last since they can be dragged around stepped on it pulled and so on . the same cable will be used to last not because they sound " better " but because they last and i can tell you that they don't cost a harm and leg, in a recording studio wile recording instruments or voice the only thing that will be changed are the ..... instruments ( depending on the artists ) and .... microphones .

The thing is ... the so called audiophile world will always believe in what they want to believe they really need a reality check in what was done with the HDMI cables . When presented with blind test's they contest the test's itself has flaws :scratch: .

My opinion is ... if someone want's to improve the sound they should invest more in room treatment rater than cables .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Yes folks, I was referring to listening to a live symphonic performance and comparing it to the recorded version of the same performance. I did this many years ago in Lincoln Center in NYC when Leonard Bernstein was the conductor. It really opened my eyes to what reproduced music should sound like. My ultimate objective since then was to try to have reproduced music sound like live.

Listening to live music at a rock concert and trying to reproduce that experience at home is almost impossible, because unless you have the same equipment as the performers, you can never reproduce the same sound. Nor do I want to in my house to have dozens of power amps producing 10,000 watts RMS and a dozen folded horn or bass reflex speakers.

So, my question is still, are we trying to reproduce music as it was originally performed, or to make is sound "good" to our ears.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts
Yes folks, I was referring to listening to a live symphonic performance and comparing it to the recorded version of the same performance. I did this many years ago in Lincoln Center in NYC when Leonard Bernstein was the conductor. It really opened my eyes to what reproduced music should sound like. My ultimate objective since then was to try to have reproduced music sound like live.

Listening to live music at a rock concert and trying to reproduce that experience at home is almost impossible, because unless you have the same equipment as the performers, you can never reproduce the same sound. Nor do I want to in my house to have dozens of power amps producing 10,000 watts RMS and a dozen folded horn or bass reflex speakers.

So, my question is still, are we trying to reproduce music as it was originally performed, or to make is sound "good" to our ears.
I would say the latter because its extremely difficult to reproduce the acoustic properties of a venu in our listening space.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts
I will never forget the look on your face the night we met and I changed your world. :eek:lddude:

Are people aware that the wire connecting the semiconductor to the lead of power transistors is a single piece of wire, no thicker than one's hair. What magical qualities could speaker wire posses that would could clean up the signal coming from the lead of the power transistor? IHO, I think that sight bias is far more influential in what a person hears than the ears themselves. To eliminate any sight bias, a SBT test is all that's need to eliminate sight bias but so many audiophiles "poo-poo" this test. Fact is, if one cannot reliably pick the same result from repeated blind tests but can when sighted, then we have proof positive how much sight influences what one hears. The math is complete in describing the propagation properties of cables/interconnects. What is also complete is the inability for people to consistently choose the same result in a blind listening test.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
You know .. you just have lost your argument by stating " I also sell power cables, some of which are very expensive " sorry to tell you but this is the same marketing line has Bose or Monster Cables . It's funny that you bring the " One of the reasons that sites like HTS exist is due to the sponsorship and donations " Let me ask you the other way around would your company existed without marketing ? Big companies invest today more in marketing that they invest in product development but i can understand this since its simple economics .

Now i ask you ... are the costumers that buy truth Monoprice or Blue Jeans Cable wrong ? It's up to us as consumers to decide what's best for us and that will work ( BTW i never bought nothing on Monoprice or Blue Jeans but i know a lot of guys that did it and are very happy with it ) , if your product return is less than 0.4% good for you .

I do believe that are company's that build better cables or power cables but that they will have a influence how the sound or the power reaches from point A to B ..... no .

As guitar player and being around recording studios i can only give you my experience and has i read somewhere around this same tread can confirm this . In a studio all the cables used will always be the same we just want them to last since they can be dragged around stepped on it pulled and so on . the same cable will be used to last not because they sound " better " but because they last and i can tell you that they don't cost a harm and leg, in a recording studio wile recording instruments or voice the only thing that will be changed are the ..... instruments ( depending on the artists ) and .... microphones .

The thing is ... the so called audiophile world will always believe in what they want to believe they really need a reality check in what was done with the HDMI cables . When presented with blind test's they contest the test's itself has flaws :scratch: .

My opinion is ... if someone want's to improve the sound they should invest more in room treatment rater than cables .
Ahhh, yes: the evil businessman - I eat babies, too :unbelievable:

All of my marketing is done by word of mouth

Belief systems are self perpetuating. Empiricism is the qualifier and/or quantifier.

There is no wrong choice when it comes to an individual's preferences. I have a Blue Jeans digital cable that is a very competent cable.

"if your product return is less than 0.4% good for you ." A thinly veiled question to my integrity, eh? Too bad. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is true.

My first trip to the studio was at age 15 in Norman Petty's Clovis, NM studio (my home town). Norman was my Godfather.

http://www.santafecenterstudios.com/ One of the recording studios that I designed back in the mid '90s. Grammy winner, Dove winner, Addy winner, home of many movie soundtracks and , oh, yes: Breaking Bad, etc, etc. I'll go on record as to hating the color scheme -. It is way too Santa Fe for me. The entire space was designed by me. All of the diffusers absorbent panels room configurations and geometries are mine and copyrighted There is 3.5 miles of technical wiring in the studio. Most of it is Mogami (high conductivity OFC copper, spiral shield) chosen for its SOUND - Whirlwind, Belden, Carol and Canare didn't cut it.

All of the mic cables are cryogenically treated cables, each chosen specifically for its' task. Most of the gear has been modified for better SQ... a lot of it by yours truly. I have 35 years experience behind a mixing or mastering desk. I get it. Perhaps you and I can have a meaningful discussion of side chained trigger frequency dependent delay panning someday.

I'm not explaining this in a "mine's bigger" context, but as a note that there are people with years of real world EXPERIENCE that know some things to be true because our livelihoods depend upon those realities and the product is better for their use.

If you want a mic cable for live - it is hard to beat Canare... bulletproof.

I build my own guitar cables. Go figure..........
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
Are people aware that the wire connecting the semiconductor to the lead of power transistors is a single piece of wire, no thicker than one's hair. What magical qualities could speaker wire posses that would could clean up the signal coming from the lead of the power transistor? IHO, I think that sight bias is far more influential in what a person hears than the ears themselves. To eliminate any sight bias, a SBT test is all that's need to eliminate sight bias but so many audiophiles "poo-poo" this test. Fact is, if one cannot reliably pick the same result from repeated blind tests but can when sighted, then we have proof positive how much sight influences what one hears. The math is complete in describing the propagation properties of cables/interconnects. What is also complete is the inability for people to consistently choose the same result in a blind listening test.
"Are people aware that the wire connecting the semiconductor to the lead of power transistors is a single piece of wire, no thicker than one's hair." Much smaller than that these days. New technology is 12 angstroms or better.

"What is also complete is the inability for people to consistently choose the same result in a blind listening test." Depends upon the person and the test.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts
"Are people aware that the wire connecting the semiconductor to the lead of power transistors is a single piece of wire, no thicker than one's hair." Much smaller than that these days. New technology is 12 angstroms or better.

"What is also complete is the inability for people to consistently choose the same result in a blind listening test." Depends upon the person and the test.
Level matched simply switching between speaker wires or interconnects of identical length with the listener not being able to see whuch speaker wire or interconnect is selected.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
Level matched simply switching between speaker wires or interconnects of identical length with the listener not being able to see whuch speaker wire or interconnect is selected.
Do it all of the time. How do you think we arrive at products that are better? I have a focus group of brutally honest people as my goto bunch. Identification has to be 100% concurrance with better than 80% accuracy on 3 or more separate sessions to avoid fatigue and boredom. Sighted tests are worthless for this type of testing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
I will never forget the look on your face the night we met and I changed your world. :eek:lddude:
Yeah, I didn't expect what happened. I had no reason to believe anything would happened, but trusted you that there must be some difference to you anyway.

We swapped out one power cable on my 30 watt pure class A stereo amp. It was some super cryo'ed 14 gauge cable with some special voodoo for all I knew.

The difference was apparent and immediate. I didn't need a back and forth to decide if there was a difference or not. It was like I had been listening to a cassette tape player and you just hooked up a CD player. The bass was deeper and much more solid. Vocal ranges improved. Clarity improved. The whole thing sounded cleaner. And I was stunned at the difference in bass impact.

Then you swapped in a 12 gauge version. I was expecting more of the same and thought the bass might improve even more. The surprise this time wasn't in the bass region. The bass was the same. It was in the mid-range where things got better. The vocal range was clearer.

Yep, I was stunned. And thus the beginning of a journey, and over a decade now of an education into the effects cables can have in the system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts
Do it all of the time. How do you think we arrive at products that are better?
I'm not sure that you do :D . I apologize for my skeptism and it should not be taken as an insult. I'm trying to figure out how your group embarks on product improvement when its claimed that there is more than LCR properties.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
I'm not sure that you do :D . I apologize for my skeptism and it should not be taken as an insult. I'm trying to figure out how your group embarks on product improvement when its claimed that there is more than LCR properties.
How rude. The green smiley doesn't make up for your implication.

Like I said in another post. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. I will make one pass at this for you and then I am done.

First, we have to differentiate the differences between wire, cable and audio interconnects and power cables.

Wire:Noun - Metal drawn out into the form of a thin flexible thread or rod.

Cable - Noun - An insulated electrical conductor, often in strands, or a combination of electrical conductors insulated from one another

Audio Interconnect - A system of connectors, wire, and insulation that connects two devices for broadband transmission of a low current, low voltage signal - this also includes data transmission. DT is a much more involved process with different wire parameters needed, especially in the context of insulation.

Power cable - A system of connectors, wire, and insulation that connects two devices for narrowband transmission of high current and moderate voltage fixed frequency alternating current power.

LCR is the driving force in audio cable design, no doubt. I include power cables in this group for purposes of discussion. By definition every audio cable is a filter with the characteristic impedance determined by LCR. In addition it is a system of materials, geometries and terminations. Sidebar [The sound of poorly terminated connections is a major source of noise in recording studio applications.]

SQ in cabling is a strange animal. To put it as succinctly as possible: everything effects everything else. The minor players are: dielectrics, conductor purity, crystalline structure of the conductor and termination type. A cold weld is the best possible connection. Solders are basically metal glues. Corrosion of any sort is the enemy. Cleanliness is godliness in audio.

A cable designer takes all of this and puts in the blender that is the brain, adds a pinch of experience, applies solid engineering practices and ends up with a cable that SOUNDS different from another cable using the same materials. "How can that be?' - you may ask. Try it for yourself. Do the work. Do the materials and process research and you will then know. It is not a simple task. The product is the result of an inquisitive mind wondering why and how.

Why are there still research engineers? How do they do what they do?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
Okay, I am pretty sure this was directed at me.

I could really tell about what i found a lie or not but after seeing someone defending that there's " There is much more to cables than simple resistance, inductance, and capacitance. " and that user name having the " Sponsor " all over it ... i might believe that Santa really exists .
And this was directed at Dave...

You know .. you just have lost your argument by stating " I also sell power cables, some of which are very expensive " sorry to tell you but this is the same marketing line has Bose or Monster Cables.
Most of you don't know either of us very well so please let me share a few things with you.

Let me start with something about Dave. Dave is the kind of guy that would like to show you something really cool, because it's really cool to him, and he wants you to see or hear it too. Maybe you can't afford what he has to show you. That's okay. He still wants to show you. And if you like something he does and want to buy it then that's cool too. He is not a salesman and is not here to make a sale of cables or something. But if he can share something with you that makes what you love sound better, then it's worth it for him. I know this about him. I have known him for nearly 15 years.

I am the same way. If I can just get a few of you to be open minded and give something a shot, then you might just be really happy with the outcome. I get nothing out of coming into a thread and telling someone they're wrong. I am not that kind of guy. There is no joy in an argument for me. But it is worth it if I can make your system sound better.

Here is an example. Dave sent me a new conditioner that he was working on. It was a new product or soon to be new product. It was a power conditioner that he called the Majik Buss. What it did was incredible. I loved it. And in the world of high end audio it was very inexpensive for what it did. It was WELL worth the money. I also thought that this was something my customers would be interested in trying. So I bought ten of them from Dave. And even though I don't do power conditioning or offer any products like that, I put it on my web site. You can see it here: http://gr-research.com/majikbuss.aspx

I then contacted my friends at Electra Cable (they are just down the road) and ordered 10 of their best B-7 power cables in a 4 foot length. See them here: http://www.electracable.com/powercables.htm

I then sent out (free of charge) a Majik Buss and a power cable to anyone that wanted to try them. I posted it in my forum at the Audio Circle and let people know they could try them out. If they wanted to keep them I'd sell it to them and if not I had them send them to someone else waiting to give them a try. The two together listed for $924. For what they did, that was cheap. And if anyone wanted to keep them I discounted them down to $795. I got a little bit of a break on the Majik Busses from Dave and I got a little bit of a break on the power cables. So I passed it on. I wasn't looking to make money on them. I made very little if anything especially considering the time I spent with it. However, it allowed some people that were somewhat skeptical to find out for themselves if there was anything to this stuff or not. And not to any surprise it was quite clear to all that there was indeed quite a bit to all of this.

Now I am not suggesting that someone with less than $1000 in their whole home theater system is going to notice a huge difference with better power cables and AC conditioning. They likely might notice some difference, but might not. And it would be silly to spend more on cables and conditioning than in all the rest of your system. I would never suggest that. But if you are trying to reach audio nirvana then you need to consider this stuff. The differences become more apparent as the quality of the system goes up.

In short, I will do just about anything to allow someone to see the light (in more ways than one). And Dave is exactly the same.

Find out why for yourselves.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
Okay, I am pretty sure this was directed at me.



And this was directed at Dave...



Most of you don't know either of us very well so please let me share a few things with you.

Let me start with something about Dave. Dave is the kind of guy that would like to show you something really cool, because it's really cool to him, and he wants you to see or hear it too. Maybe you can't afford what he has to show you. That's okay. He still wants to show you. And if you like something he does and want to buy it then that's cool too. He is not a salesman and is not here to make a sale of cables or something. But if he can share something with you that makes what you love sound better, then it's worth it for him. I know this about him. I have known him for nearly 15 years.

I am the same way. If I can just get a few of you to be open minded and give something a shot, then you might just be really happy with the outcome. I get nothing out of coming into a thread and telling someone they're wrong. I am not that kind of guy. There is no joy in an argument for me. But it is worth it if I can make your system sound better.

Here is an example. Dave sent me a new conditioner that he was working on. It was a new product or soon to be new product. It was a power conditioner that he called the Majik Buss. What it did was incredible. I loved it. And in the world of high end audio it was very inexpensive for what it did. It was WELL worth the money. I also thought that this was something my customers would be interested in trying. So I bought ten of them from Dave. And even though I don't do power conditioning or offer any products like that, I put it on my web site. You can see it here: http://gr-research.com/majikbuss.aspx

I then contacted my friends at Electra Cable (they are just down the road) and ordered 10 of their best B-7 power cables in a 4 foot length. See them here: http://www.electracable.com/powercables.htm

I then sent out (free of charge) a Majik Buss and a power cable to anyone that wanted to try them. I posted it in my forum at the Audio Circle and let people know they could try them out. If they wanted to keep them I'd sell it to them and if not I had them send them to someone else waiting to give them a try. The two together listed for $924. For what they did, that was cheap. And if anyone wanted to keep them I discounted them down to $795. I got a little bit of a break on the Majik Busses from Dave and I got a little bit of a break on the power cables. So I passed it on. I wasn't looking to make money on them. I made very little if anything especially considering the time I spent with it. However, it allowed some people that were somewhat skeptical to find out for themselves if there was anything to this stuff or not. And not to any surprise it was quite clear to all that there was indeed quite a bit to all of this.

Now I am not suggesting that someone with less than $1000 in their whole home theater system is going to notice a huge difference with better power cables and AC conditioning. They likely might notice some difference, but might not. And it would be silly to spend more on cables and conditioning than in all the rest of your system. I would never suggest that. But if you are trying to reach audio nirvana then you need to consider this stuff. The differences become more apparent as the quality of the system goes up.

In short, I will do just about anything to allow someone to see the light (in more ways than one). And Dave is exactly the same.

Find out why for yourselves.
:ponder: I guess I should have talked to you before I did this:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-home-theater/68846-interest-satisfying-discussion.html

heh, heh
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
310 Posts
Spoiler
Ahhh, yes: the evil businessman - I eat babies, too :unbelievable:

All of my marketing is done by word of mouth

Belief systems are self perpetuating. Empiricism is the qualifier and/or quantifier.

There is no wrong choice when it comes to an individual's preferences. I have a Blue Jeans digital cable that is a very competent cable.

"if your product return is less than 0.4% good for you ." A thinly veiled question to my integrity, eh? Too bad. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is true.

My first trip to the studio was at age 15 in Norman Petty's Clovis, NM studio (my home town). Norman was my Godfather.

http://www.santafecenterstudios.com/ One of the recording studios that I designed back in the mid '90s. Grammy winner, Dove winner, Addy winner, home of many movie soundtracks and , oh, yes: Breaking Bad, etc, etc. I'll go on record as to hating the color scheme -. It is way too Santa Fe for me. The entire space was designed by me. All of the diffusers absorbent panels room configurations and geometries are mine and copyrighted There is 3.5 miles of technical wiring in the studio. Most of it is Mogami (high conductivity OFC copper, spiral shield) chosen for its SOUND - Whirlwind, Belden, Carol and Canare didn't cut it.

All of the mic cables are cryogenically treated cables, each chosen specifically for its' task. Most of the gear has been modified for better SQ... a lot of it by yours truly. I have 35 years experience behind a mixing or mastering desk. I get it. Perhaps you and I can have a meaningful discussion of side chained trigger frequency dependent delay panning someday.

I'm not explaining this in a "mine's bigger" context, but as a note that there are people with years of real world EXPERIENCE that know some things to be true because our livelihoods depend upon those realities and the product is better for their use.

If you want a mic cable for live - it is hard to beat Canare... bulletproof.

I build my own guitar cables. Go figure..........
I guess we don't know what we are talking about and we are wrong even this guys are wrong ... go figure :unbelievable:

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Let me start with something about Dave. Dave is the kind of guy that would like to show you something really cool, because it's really cool to him, and he wants you to see or hear it too. Maybe you can't afford what he has to show you. That's okay. He still wants to show you. And if you like something he does and want to buy it then that's cool too. He is not a salesman and is not here to make a sale of cables or something. But if he can share something with you that makes what you love sound better, then it's worth it for him. I know this about him. I have known him for nearly 15 years.

I am the same way. If I can just get a few of you to be open minded and give something a shot, then you might just be really happy with the outcome. I get nothing out of coming into a thread and telling someone they're wrong. I am not that kind of guy. There is no joy in an argument for me. But it is worth it if I can make your system sound better.
And you debunked another big lie in audio - people will show off stuff in their own environment to con you into paying a fortune for something that you don't need. A lot of us (most?) love to show things and get excited over those things. It's not work - it's fun. For me, it's with computers. I love showing off computer stuff and graphics and cool things. I also do computer work for a living. It's fun, and I don't consider it work. That's how you guys sound - enjoy the hobby so much and you get to work with it for a living. After some big-box stores, and some smaller shops, I get the impression that most people are in it for the $$, not because they love doing what they do. Thanks for showing that not everyone is like that.

I always like the guys that say "Come check this out. It's new and awesome!" and never ask for the sale. They are showing how cool the new toys are... I guess a better word would be sharing. We're all in this hobby because we love it. We love talking about it (or arguing!), checking out the new stuff, and watching movies and listening to music. If I had the newest, coolest thing, or just something awesome, I'd definitely share it with anyone remotely interested!

A bit more on topic - with cables and such, I'm a bit of a skeptic. They do matter up to a point. After that point, it's either a difference when using a spectrum analyzer or psychological (I WANT to hear a difference, but is there really a difference?). So, as it's my system, if I can't hear a noticeable difference, I may not go for it. Other people might hear a difference, but they aren't in my room listening to my system. I want the best, but eventually I'll hit the point of diminishing returns. Whether that is at a 14 gauge gold plated, twisted pair cable or a $20 vs $200 HDMI cable, I'm not sure.
 

·
Plain ole user
Joined
·
11,121 Posts
There is nothing wrong with being passionate about what you experience and showing off cool technology and toys. Whether much of the audio industry is more like a jeweler or art aficionado showing off things some think are fantastic, even essential to have or showing off a unique application of technology that not only enhances experience but can be demonstrated to be well grounded in science is the question. For many, the former is enough. For others there needs to be some solid science to justify expense. Where most of the latter get frustrated is with those who claim a scientific basis but only present a superficial analysis and lip service to the scientific method. Similarly, the need for such justification seems silly to those whose experience is the only evidence needed.

Experience is not a concrete and easily definable quantity, but for many it is all that is needed. There is no reason that the two need to be juxtaposed in conflict, however. They can coexist easily if one respects the views and the right of others to hold those views. Both perspectives have much to learn from the other. The way the debates are generally framed, e.g. the very premise of this thread, the notion of "lies" and whether they might be "debunked" and statements like "This one shows complete ignorance" simply serve to enhance conflict rather than expand knowledge.
 
201 - 220 of 287 Posts
Top