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Ten Biggest Audio Lies: Agree or Disagree (If you disagree, you must explain why!) Votes are public!

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That is exactly the point. There is none. They simply sound different. That is what Danny and I are trying to convey. The math falls apart when faced with the reality of perception. There are some things That either can't be measured or are poopooed as insignificant by the math. Dielectric absorption of the insulator is just one example. Quite frankly speaking, I don't care about the math involved much any more. Certainly it is the starting point from which a good cable is designed. It is the foundation upon which the cable voice is built. Yes there is a process there, too. Some things sound bad, some things sound good, others fall somewhere in between. Building a "good sounding" cable is a cut and try process. Basically it comes down to whether we believe our ears or not. I do. I am a certified trained listener because I took the course in ear training and I passed the tests. I even have a certificate around here somewhere stating that I did. That is unless Gayle threw it away in one of her "cleaning and clearing" binges. Don't care much about the awards. I just do what I do. I'm not out to try to impress anyone. I do what I do for the love of the music. I had a career in the semiconductor industry ended when Philips Semiconductor pulled up shop in the USA. As an Implant Technician I worked on what we call the death ray and I learned a lot about how things really do work down to an atomic scale. I know materials, material purity, cryogenics and changes of energy states very well. I am not an electrical engineer. I build things that work. I know how they work, why they work and can predict what the effects of a particular cable will be on a given piece of gear because I have done the work to find out the hows', whys' and wherefores' of my gig. My son in law Brian is a lead engineer for ASM. They provide tools and services for the semiconductor industry, primarily Intel. He calls me a Mad Scientist. Maybe so. Call me crazy. Maybe so.
I am open minded but this is where I have to question the veracity of what you are saying. If there is indeed a difference in the sound and not just a difference in what you believe you are hearing, it should be measurable and there MUST be a mechanism in the properties of the components and their interaction with the signal that can be studied, discovered and quantified. To argue otherwise completely destroys any credibility in the science that is purported to be behind your claims. I am stunned that you would say that there is no mechanism that results in the differences you claim. If there is not then there is no physical difference in the sound. Your statement is a complete rejection of the possibility of any science being involved here.

If there is a difference that is not just belief or psychological in nature, then we have to be able to map it to the physics and electrical theory. If you are not willing to attempt to do so, I see nothing interesting about your arguments.

Frankly, I believe there are more differences in components than most "objectivists" would believe, but most are not meaningful in most cases. If there are, they may be hard to measure, hard to define, and obscure, but that does not mean it can't or shouldn't be done. We have some extremely powerful tools these days that should be able to measure and model such differences, if anyone really wanted to do so. The belief of many is that those who promote the mysticism of audio have no equity in the actual facts because many of their claims will be proven either false or meaningless. Based on your argument above, I'd say that perspective is gaining credibility. You are your own arguments best antagonist with statements like this.
 

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I am not Dave but I'd really like to take this one.

Please don't believe me. Please don't take my word for it. Please allow me to show you that differences and cables and conditioners are easily heard and make a positive difference in your listening experience.

Yes guys like Peter Aczel and Ethan Winer can tell you whatever they want. And I can tell you without question that they don't know what I know. They don't have the experiences that I have. They don't have the type of system that I have. And what they have said is very much untrue. They may not think they are lying when they say what they do, but it is out of ignorance. And I don't say that to be mean or take a shot at them. I say that because it is true. And I know it to be true.

So don't believe those guys. Hey don't believe me either. Find out for yourself. I'll help you!

And if one guys hears no difference then he can say he hears no difference. No problem. But he cannot conclude there is no difference because he doesn't hear one.

To go back to humorous illustration, that would be like going out to look for Bigfoot, not finding one, and declaring there is no Bigfoot.
Sorry Danny you look like a nice guy and capable of having a conversation but what you are saying to me i did it . I used speaker cables and power cables from Nordost ( if we can use them as reference ) with several brands of speakers , amps and receivers from extremely high priced speakers , amps to lower as polk speakers .

All that started because one guy in a circle of 5 guys bought them and he went WoW . Of course we all wanted to have that effect only one didn't believed in that so we putted to the test for several weekends with each one of us blindly changing as we pleased cables and the only power cord that we had . At the end 4 of us didn't notice any difference only the guy that paid for them still well till this day that he believes that there's something different .

On a side note i can tell you that guy from then ( about 9 years ago ) till today he changed his gear several times and for me that's the difference .... having deep pockets you can do whatever rocks your boat .
 

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There continues to be the perception that electrical engineering as an industry has not given much thought to how wire, interconnects, insulation / dielectric materials, and transmission line design and how discontinuities in materials or the transmission line design affects the propagation of electrical signals.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing here is some information.
http://www.simberian.com/AppNotes/ModelingConductorLoss_2007_02.pdf

You also cannot simply ignore orders of magnitude when you want to debate this topic.
The smallest valued component in a speaker, power supply, amplifier output....absolutely dwarfs the largest electrical parameter of a power cord, interconnect wire, or speaker cable.
I am not an acoustics guy so sound may be magic (probably not though), I am an electrical guy and I know that when the audio frequency signal is still electricity it is not magic.

I love "HiFi" and home theater, if people want power line conditioners, fancy power cords, cryogenic treated speaker wires, I say get them....but these are the play things of the well heeled audiophile.

Dog-gone-it I promised myself I would not post in this thread.
Frankly speaking, I could not agree more with your post and link. I am an electrical guy, too and I understand and concur with what you are saying. Thing is that many people believe that everything that applies to the lGHz realm is irrelevant to audio. Fractal theory teaches that this is not the case, but everything is simply a product of scale. Skin effect, conductor gauge and geometry, insulation... all of this is relevant.

One of the things that you are overlooking is the effect that the AC sewer that we have coming into the house that supplies the system. Commercial power supplies are incapable of negating this crapola that rides on what 'should be' pristine 120VAC @ 60Hz. Stick a good scope in the wall and take a peek sometime. The power supply is the first place the bean counters go to suck $$$ out of manufacturing costs. SMPS that are poorly designed are really bad. How many wall warts do you have plugged into the wall? Bad juju.

Nothing in the realm of audio is magic. It can all be explained by the math as a basis, but must be tempered by the reality that some things are simply unexplainable with the mathematic paradigm as it exists today. It is guys like me that are doing the research trying to provide that explanation. I don't just build them and sell them. I am seriously trying to find an explanation for the whys' and hows'. I think I am getting close to understanding and defining the impact of dielectrics on the equation in total. My mathematical skills are simply not up to snuff. That is why I am working with a young college grad who lives and breathes numbers. So does his significant other. She makes me feel stupid. The question is: why does the dielectric constant have the effect on the audio frequency band when common knowledge and current mathematical theory says that it should not? Dunno, but we are working on it.

There is more to all of this than meets the eye....eerrrr.... ear. Not all of us are snake oil salesmen or crooks.

When it comes to buying power conditioners, power cables or speaker cables only buy from a seller that offers a 100% Moneyback Guarantee that is a no quibble guarantee. Do not let the fact that something is cryoed or has other special materials processing be an impediment. Those things should NEVER be a selling point, but merely one of the many tools that a manufacturer uses to get the end product. Way too many people are gullible and buy the buzzwords associated with a product. These are the same people that wil buy the new iPhone97 or whatever. Don't condemn the entire high end industry for the gullibility of the masses.

I'm just sayin'.
 

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I am open minded but this is where I have to question the veracity of what you are saying. If there is indeed a difference in the sound and not just a difference in what you believe you are hearing, it should be measurable and there MUST be a mechanism in the properties of the components and their interaction with the signal that can be studied, discovered and quantified. To argue otherwise completely destroys any credibility in the science that is purported to be behind your claims. I am stunned that you would say that there is no mechanism that results in the differences you claim. If there is not then there is no physical difference in the sound. Your statement is a complete rejection of the possibility of any science being involved here.

If there is a difference that is not just belief or psychological in nature, then we have to be able to map it to the physics and electrical theory. If you are not willing to attempt to do so, I see nothing interesting about your arguments.

Frankly, I believe there are more differences in components than most "objectivists" would believe, but most are not meaningful in most cases. If there are, they may be hard to measure, hard to define, and obscure, but that does not mean it can't or shouldn't be done. We have some extremely powerful tools these days that should be able to measure and model such differences, if anyone really wanted to do so. The belief of many is that those who promote the mysticism of audio have no equity in the actual facts because many of their claims will be proven either false or meaningless. Based on your argument above, I'd say that perspective is gaining credibility. You are your own arguments best antagonist with statements like this.
I understand your position because I share it, too. I am at a complete dead end as to why things sound different. See my post below. This does not preclude me from working with the tools of empiricism and putting out a product when I don't fully understand it. Dude. I have to make a living, too. The thing that you do not recognize is that I am diligently trying my hardest to find an explanation. I am paying people to help me to do so.

Let me be quite frank and honest with you and the rest of the people that may be viewing. While you all sit there and judge me, you do not know me. You have made assumptions as to what kind of person I am without doing due diligence and finding out anything about me or my company. Frankly speaking I am offended. You assume things that are not true. I am a Christian man of integrity. I will not lie. I will not misrepresent myself or my products. I am doing the heavy lifting and doing the research to understand how God's creation works. I am not so arrogant as to suppose to think that we know everything. Far from it. We know very little about how and why all of this works. I do my research diligently, prayerfully and with no presuppositions. How many times has the Arrogance of Man and his "knowledge" been proven wrong. The scientists said the world was flat, for crying out loud! What are you doing?
 

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I repeat my earlier question: I am still puzzled by all the arguments and disputes as to whose methodology is superior and what magic elixir we can concoct which will make my system sound better than yours.

Are we looking to replicate the music as it was originally performed at whatever venue that may be (chamber music quartet or Iron Maiden concert), or are we comparing one method of reproducing music with another, ignoring the quest to come close as possible to the original live performance?

If we just want to reproduce music that sound great to you, then there isn't any system that's better than another. They just sound different. Whatever tweak you add to your system makes the music sound better to you, then by all means, it's the best for you. If you can't hear the difference, then what you currently have is the best for you.

How can anyone possibly know when the music sounds the best it can, when you never heard the original performance to compare it with?

Remember the story of "The Emperor's New Clothes".
 

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All that started because one guy in a circle of 5 guys bought them and he went WoW . Of course we all wanted to have that effect only one didn't believed in that so we putted to the test for several weekends with each one of us blindly changing as we pleased cables and the only power cord that we had . At the end 4 of us didn't notice any difference only the guy that paid for them still well till this day that he believes that there's something different .
I believe you and won't dispute with you what you do or do not hear.

Some cable swaps though are a lateral movement. I have had a guy bring in some latest high dollar power cable that is suppose to work great with DAC X but in my system is was a backward move. It didn't work well with my power conditioning, but in a head to head comparison coming out of the wall it did come out on top. It depends on system synergy.

On a side note i can tell you that guy from then ( about 9 years ago ) till today he changed his gear several times and for me that's the difference .... having deep pockets you can do whatever rocks your boat .
I do this for a living. My system changes all the time, especially speakers. Listening comparisons are a lot of fun for me and sometimes very enlightening.
 

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Are we looking to replicate the music as it was originally performed at whatever venue that may be (chamber music quartet or Iron Maiden concert), or are we comparing one method of reproducing music with another, ignoring the quest to come close as possible to the original live performance?
In my opinion, no. Live music often doesn't sound that great. In many venues the SPL level overpowers the room. The mix is no where near as good as a studio recording. There is crowd noise. There are room reflections. Horrible sounding stage monitors. Bad seating.... And rarely are live recordings very good. Some are, but most are horrible compared to a controlled studio recording.

I would rather reproduce the studio recording is a way that emulates a live personal performance.

If we just want to reproduce music that sound great to you, then there isn't any system that's better than another. They just sound different. Whatever tweak you add to your system makes the music sound better to you, then by all means, it's the best for you. If you can't hear the difference, then what you currently have is the best for you.

How can anyone possibly know when the music sounds the best it can, when you never heard the original performance to compare it with?
We CAN make it sound better. And better than live. These "tweaks" can strip away the noise floor, the RFI and EMI issues, reduce smearing, etc. It isn't the notes we change or manipulate. It is the space between the notes. Blacker blacks we call it. Cleaner, clearer, resolution man. We don't change the recording. We allow it to be heard as recorded.

It is like going to a live show and stripping away the audience, the bad stage monitors, the amplification, poor microphone placements, all of the room related effects, and listening to a real live performance just for you.

We CAN make it sound more true to the original recording.
 

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Somehow you have the idea that all I do is shoot from the hip in product design. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Product design always begins with the math. to do it any other way would be foolish. I have design parameters that serve as the basis for each product. When they are completed I qual test each one to make sure they fall into the range of design target. Standard deviation must be less than +/- 2%. For testing I use a Techtronix scope and various and sundry Fluke and B&K meters. Testing begins with visual inspection of all of the solder connections, a strain test on cables to insure structural integrity (on the cables) LCR measurements, bandwidth, etc. etc, etc. Then everything is given a short burn-in and retested for qual validation. There are a couple of other tests that are proprietary and are no one's business, but mine. Then cables are cryogenically treated (yeah, I know) and finally retested to check for drift and to insure that they are still within spec. Just FYI, LC remains the same, but R decreases by ~.8% - 1% after cryo in power cables, a tad less in interconnects.

My supply chain is a consistent one and chosen for that consistency. All of my components are mil spec or better and testing is done on individual wire batches to insure consistency. Besides that, I know the guy and he tells me of any changes. There have been none in 5 years.

My soldering station is a Hakko and my reflow iron is a Chinese cheaper because I seldom use one. Solder is an SnAgCu alloy.

I hope that satisfies you, I'm getting weary about now of this whole topic.

In closing let me relate an experience. I built 3 cables that had LCR within .5% of each other. We had a listening session using a switch box that I build with identical runs, components, yada yada.... Testing was DB. see, even us tweaks use it. This one is set up not to fail but yield usable results because I haven't got the time to waste.

Over three successive sessions results were unanimous (5 participants to eliminate a tie) and repeatable. Each cable was chosen from the other two as having specific sonics unique from the others. The difference between the cables was simply insulation type.

THAT is why we do empirical (subjective listening) testing.
Thank you for the response. Finally there is some real meat in this discussion other than experience. You gave me some tangeable arguements and desciptions. Again, please don't take that as an insult because its very difficult to accept another's experience when it goes against every grain of what has been learned in school.

I do understand mil-mpec very well having worked for Lockheed here in Canada for 7 years. I'm beginning to understand the cost of cables now when mil-spec components are being used. The paper trail is very expensive and the cost gets passed onto the components.

Its interesting that after cryo, the cable resistance decreases. I would have thought an increase initially as one is seriously dropping the energy levels on the free electrons but the resistance would decrease back to the original state as the cable warms up.

I would love to A/B the cable. I'm not a believer but have opened my mind that maybe there is something more.
 

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Re: Power Chords as Filters

Sorry fellows. I have been a little busy and haven't been able to reply for a few days.
Yeah I hate it when work gets in the way. :)



Let's say for instance that we did add a conductive shroud around the wiring to act as a shield since you say that you can understand this working or having some effect. Did or does the shielding change LCR? It might be implemented in a way that has no effect on LCR yet it is shielded and sounds different. Why?
Shielding prevents RFI from penetrating the conductors and is usually tapped to a ground. I don't know how shielding could remove artifacts already present in the electrical current.

Braiding can also cause a cancellation effect that becomes a filter. This can be seen though in capacitance. Some might not see this added capacitance if they don't measure up high enough to see it. Works great though.
Braiding acts like twisted pair so I understand that.


ERS cloth is like a RFI and EMI sponge. It not only has a filtering effect but can have an over filtering effect. One has to be very careful not to use too much of this stuff in some applications or it can have some adverse effect. You'd have to hear it to know how much is too much. It can suck the life out of the music if you are not careful.
ERS cloth??? Q'est que c'est? (what's that)

I have some power cables with small capacitors built into the ends themselves. That one should be easy to grasp. It is an added filter. One cap goes from hot to neutral and another from neutral to ground. It makes a path of least resistance to ground for high frequency ranges.
No problems with that one. :T

Most people are aware of surge suppressors. Miles and miles of cable bring power to the home, then there is a bunch of cable in the home, and then a little piece of four foot cable with a little power strip on it will filter out a voltage spike. And everyone accepts that.

Power cables often work the same way. Miles and miles of cables bring power to the home carrying with it RFI. All the cabling in the house does the same. Then in that last four feet of cable the power cable can be configured to filter some of that out. That's not so hard to understand.
Surge suppressors act differently than what you are explaining to me. Surge suppressors usually clamp the voltage at a safe level that that prevents damage to the down stream components. They are usually made of semiconductor which acts much faster than metal strips in fuses. Many have to be tossed out after they get used.
 

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Hey man, that's all we are really asking for. Be open minded... :T

And I really wish I could have all of you guys over for some fun comparisons.
To be fair, until dbe threw out some concrete stuff, there was no merrit to the arguements presented. No offense.

dbe....

Stop taking things personal. No one is accusing you off swindling people. I've not made any judgement calls against you personally. You are the first person in all of my years debating this stuff that is actually trying to model what you appear to hold as truth. I believe that you are honest in your beliefs. I salute your effort. :clap: However, I'm still on the fence. :D
 

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Wow,

Thread like this and I'm not involved?:rofl2:
Dave, Dan, really opened up a can-o-worms here eh? heh

General observations:
This never ends with a SBT, much less a DBT (which obviously, folks don't understand what's involved).
If anyone is remotely serious about rigor (rather than pathological ad-hoc science), I'll try to involve SY (from DIY Audio).
Now, be aware than all previous attempt with rigor have resulted in nulls (NOT the same as "no difference exists").
I am squarely in the scientifically educated/rational/logical/reasoned camp (the "Objectivist" side of the false dichotomy). But I have Dave's Uberbuss and MGAudio cabling in my system, at home and during demos :eek:. , AJ, you hypocrite, you sellout, you...
Nope.
It's just that all is done non-blind, purely for pleasure. So it matters scant that I cannot hear either a benefit, nor (more importantly) anything deleterious with these items. All I have to do, is think that they make my system more enjoyable. That's it. True subjectivity.
Trouble can only arise, if I attempt the ascribe this to a change in the (pardon the pun) soundfield/pinna method of "sound" conveyance.
I would certainly not be foolish enough to do so.

Live music often doesn't sound that great.
Dan, you really need to visit me. I'll take you here. Even the recital rooms are fantastic! You can sit within feet of the instruments and performers, for some serious acoustic calibration and memory training.
There is not an amplifier or wire in sight!:D

cheers,

AJ
 

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1)
Thing is that many people believe that everything that applies to the lGHz realm is irrelevant to audio. Fractal theory teaches that this is not the case, but everything is simply a product of scale.

2)
Skin effect, conductor gauge and geometry, insulation... all of this is relevant.

3)
One of the things that you are overlooking is the effect that the AC sewer that we have coming into the house that supplies the system.

4)
Commercial power supplies are incapable of negating this crapola that rides on what 'should be' pristine 120VAC @ 60Hz.

5)
Nothing in the realm of audio is magic. It can all be explained by the math as a basis, but must be tempered by the reality that some things are simply unexplainable with the mathematic paradigm as it exists today.

6)
There is more to all of this than meets the eye....eerrrr.... ear. Not all of us are snake oil salesmen or crooks.

7)
I'm just sayin'.
1) My take on this is the audiophile community uses microwave theory incorrectly to support the various mysterious unexplainable and or imaginary affects cables and wires have on a system.
I agree that that the effects of parasitics are scaled with frequency and current and if there is ever a speaker wire that approaches 11000 ft then we can start considering lumped element components.

2) The first link i posted was specifically chosen because of the explanation of skin effects beginning at 10Hz.

3) A better measurement would be to put scope probe 1 on the AC input and scope probe 2 on the output of the power supply AC coupled and compare any noise/ripple on the output to see if there is any correlation to the AC noise.
Save channel 2 to memory, install power conditioner, remeasure the output of the power supply and compare to the saved scope capture.
With even modest AVR's achieving SNR >75 dB my guess is there will be no difference between the two measurements.

4) See #3 response, I simply disagree that the power supplies in a AVR do not negate the crapola on the AC line voltage.

5) If it is not magic and it can be explained, how can it be unexplainable? HAHA sorry just messing with ya on that one

6) I do not think you are a crook, in fact I don't have any opinions about you at all.
There is obviously a market for the products you offer.
Truly the high end audio industry is one of the best examples of free enterprise I can think of.
Virtually all the money involved is discretionary, there is no leverage to be gained by any businessman over any consumer, participation by both parties is completely voluntary.

7) I am just sayin' too.

These errrr 'discussions' are always somewhat volatile, in no way is my participation intended to come off as mean spirited and if it has I sincerely apologize to both you and Danny.

One of my buddies is an audiophile and when we talk audio he suddenly forgets everything he knows as an engineer .... yes I tease him about it ... but I do not criticize him ... we both go out and listen together when one of us is shopping ... all the rest of our friends think we are both crazy and they are probably right.
 

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AJ, what's up buddy? ... How do you find these threads?

Dan, you really need to visit me. I'll take you here. Even the recital rooms are fantastic! You can sit within feet of the instruments and performers, for some serious acoustic calibration and memory training. There is not an amplifier or wire in sight!
Oh, that looks awesome. I'd love to check that out.

One of the times that I went to see Bela Fleck and the Fleckstones was in a small venue that seated about 900 people. It was an old theater that had great sound. Mid-way through the show they lost all power to the stage and all of their gear. So they just pulled up stools to the front of the stage and broke out their acoustic instruments. They did about four pieces of music that way until the power was restored. It was the best part of the show. :T

My kids play instruments at home too. We have a piano that they play here and a baby grand around the corner at my folks house. Bells, drums, xylophones and anything percussion has been here. It does give some nice perspective.
 

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AJ, what's up buddy? ... How do you find these threads?
I think they find me!:D
Actually I blame HAL.
It's sorta a seven degrees of Kevin Bacon thing. I clicked on the site, saw HAL had posted in the CapFest thread, which jogged my memory to post my 2 bits about the show.
Low and behold, below in the "AV Home Theater" forum I see the latest post is by dbe, so I click that and well....here I am.:)
Needless to say, I didn't read the whole thing.

Oh, that looks awesome. I'd love to check that out.
One of the main contributors to the acoustics was a Texan! (BAI)

It always amazes me at shows, how few people bring or request, acoustic music. I have absolutely no clue what their "reference" for reproduction is, other than it clearly isn't something I could know, or possibly design for.

cheers,

AJ
 

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It always amazes me at shows, how few people bring or request, acoustic music. I have absolutely no clue what their "reference" for reproduction is, other than it clearly isn't something I could know, or possibly design for.

cheers,

AJ
We have a great facility up here in Ottawa which I attend regularily to check out classical music concerts

 

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It always amazes me at shows, how few people bring or request, acoustic music. I have absolutely no clue what their "reference" for reproduction is, other than it clearly isn't something I could know, or possibly design for. AJ
Finally another soul agrees with my contention from day one. If you don't compare your system to live performance of the same composition and recording of it, then whatever you think sound good to you, it does.

I remember the first time I listened to Heifetz's violin solo on a friend's system in the early '60s, it blew me away. Then I heard a live performance of a violin solo and all of a sudden my friend's system sounded like an Edison acoustic phonograph. Could it be because now I had a frame of reference to what live music sounds like? Hmmmmm.....

IMHO live performance should always be the benchmark.
 

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I remember the first time I listened to Heifetz's violin solo on a friend's system in the early '60s, it blew me away. Then I heard a live performance of a violin solo and all of a sudden my friend's system sounded like an Edison acoustic phonograph. Could it be because now I had a frame of reference to what live music sounds like? Hmmmmm.....

IMHO live performance should always be the benchmark.

Hearing memory is the most inaccurate memory that humans posses, hence your recollection of it being that way. There's a reason blind audio tests are supposed to be short. Its because of inaccurate hearing memory.

Live performances in a bad acoustic environment is NOT how I want to remember how music should sound. I totally disagree with your assertion based on that.
 

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Live performances in a bad acoustic environment is NOT how I want to remember how music should sound. I totally disagree with your assertion based on that.
There are exceptions like the ones you and AJ posted links to, but they are rare. In most cases the venues are not good, and I total agree with your statement.

Hearing memory is the most inaccurate memory that humans posses, hence your recollection of it being that way. There's a reason blind audio tests are supposed to be short. Its because of inaccurate hearing memory.
I agree with this as well. It usually has little to do with a persons ability to hear a difference or not. It is about recognition and recollection. Memory is the key.

I have met a few guys that are exceptional in this way though. I remember Gary Dodd coming over one time and listening to my system after he had heard it about three or four months before. He had no idea that I had made change in the system of some kind. He picked up on it right away and described it to T. I think it might have been a cable change (ironically enough). His memory recall in that regard was incredible.

I am a bit that way myself, and I think it comes from lots of time subjectively listening.
 

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How about just keeping it simple and setting up a valid DBT without added complexity using good gear with the appropriate time slices and source material appropriate to the test? Like I said: it is easy and typical to set up bad regimen.

I'm just sayin'.
So give us your specifications for a fair evaluation. We will do just that.

My approach has always been to eliminate as many variables as possible, then change only one thing at a time, giving ample listening time for comparisons.

I used to believe that there were many more differences than I believe exist now. Once I started doing blind testing, I discovered that no matter how I changed the conditions, many of the differences that I heard previously were not sustained. Please don't assume that everyone who challenges your beliefs is out to set up a bad test to prove you wrong. If you do, then you are making the very judgments about others that you have complained are being made about you.

This forum will be fair. Sonnie and John are dedicated to that and so are the staff.
 
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