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Ten Biggest Audio Lies: Agree or Disagree (If you disagree, you must explain why!) Votes are public!

The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

119K views 288 replies 86 participants last post by  3dbinCanada 
#1 · (Edited)
I just cannot resist...

The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

This is a multiple choice poll, however, if you vote that you agree with all or disagree with all, do not vote on the individual questions or your votes will be deleted.

Do you agree... if not, then why not? (This is not an option... it is a requirement as part of the poll!) If you do not agree, then you must post why you do not agree or your vote will be stripped.

This is a public poll... click any vote to see how members voted.

Play nice ... remember our Forum Rules and Zero Tolerance!
 
#5 ·
It made me laugh to read them all as I totally agree with all of it. I know someone on here is going to pipe in say that they could prove that they are wrong but I always say if your ears cant hear or see a difference who cares what the scopes and other electronic testing equipment says.
 
#6 ·
Nice. I am glad to hear that I am not alone thinking that there is a lot of mumbo-jumbo in the audio world. I must admit that several years ago I fell victim to the cable/interconnect lie. I spent about $40 (at the time that was a lot of money for me) on a pair of stereo RCA-RCA cables that looked a lot cooler than the patch cords that came with the CD player, when the salesman promised that they would improve the sound. I proceeded to hook them up and hide them behind my equipment, resulting in no difference in sound quality what-so-ever. Still have those cables, still use them, still think they look cool when I rewire something, and still think I got ripped off!!!
 
#7 ·

Here’s my favorite quote from the article:
If you can afford a fancy power conditioner you can also afford a well-designed amplifier, in which case you don’t need the fancy power conditioner.
I pretty much agree with all of it, except for the cables. I generally not a believer in that stuff, but I have seen two instances where I could hear a difference. Which was surprising, because I wasn’t expecting anything at all. So I’m hesitant to denounce the idea outright.

Just go into it with clear eyes and know that you're just spending the extra money for aesthetics.
Aesthetics that no one will ever see... Now that I don’t get. :huh:

I never could figure out the ABX foes, with their complaints about additional switches, etc. How many switches and relays does the signal go through as it is? Let’s see, the pre-amp source selector, the amplifier relays (that many have), the amp’s speaker selector switch, etc. Silly, just silly. :dizzy:

Regards,
Wayne
 
#8 ·

Here’s my favorite quote from the article:
I pretty much agree with all of it, except for the cables. I generally not a believer in that stuff, but I have seen two instances where I could hear a difference. Which was surprising, because I wasn’t expecting anything at all. So I’m hesitant to denounce the idea outright.
There are certain situations in which different cables will be audible, but this is only if the cable is either not designed properly or is not being used properly such as if the cable is not of sufficient gauge for run length in relation to resistance.
 
#12 ·
article said:
The truth is that biamping makes
sense in certain cases, even with a passive
crossover, but biwiring is pure voodoo.
my amplifiers manual said:
If only one speaker is to be used, connect it to the SYSTEM (A) terminals.
I do this. I use my receivers amplifiers also. I plan not to later on when/if I have more sensitive speakers. :surrender:
 

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#14 ·
Most of the "lies" I generally agree with, but nearly all of them has some caveat that needs to be considered or some degree of truth to it. The problem is that rather than getting to the bottom of why people experience what they feel they do, one side wants to promote the idea as the be-all and end-all and the other side is bent on proving them wrong.

Science that starts with the goal of disproving lies is as wrong as the lies themselves. It may seem to justify self-righteousness, but it simply polarizes. In most of the debates and arguments about these issues that I have experienced, there is more interest in proving one's point than interest in learning, discovery, and the search. This is unfortunate, because we have so many great tools that could be applied to both the hardware and the perceptual parts of the experience. Home Theater Shack at least has some open minded people who are willing to discuss hese matters in a civil discourse without the vitriole.

Like my sig on AVS reads...the correct answer is, "it depends."
 
#133 ·
Most of the "lies" I generally agree with, but nearly all of them has some caveat that needs to be considered or some degree of truth to it. The problem is that rather than getting to the bottom of why people experience what they feel they do, one side wants to promote the idea as the be-all and end-all and the other side is bent on proving them wrong.

Science that starts with the goal of disproving lies is as wrong as the lies themselves. It may seem to justify self-righteousness, but it simply polarizes. In most of the debates and arguments about these issues that I have experienced, there is more interest in proving one's point than interest in learning, discovery, and the search.
The above I do agree with.

To accord with my checkmarks, I offer the following to balance the arguments a bit:

I like vacuum tubes because I believe in euphonics. I remember wandering in to The Natural Sound and finding a pair of B&W 801s set up in the middle of the floor, wired and ready to go. No one was around, so I cued up a copy of "Let It Bleed". Yuch! Really, I didn't want to know the Stones were recorded that poorly. :D If tubes can make bad stuff sound good, so I can concentrate on the performance and ignore the recording, that's worth a little accuracy in my book, and goes at least double for home theater.

Antidigital lie?!? What about the digital lie, "Perfect sound forever!" It's been shown CDs are not archival, and may not even last ten years. And once "digital" became a buzzword, they foisted MP3s on us, and an entire generation swallowed them without flinching. :eek:lddude:

True, if you have $8000 monoblocks, you don't need power conditioning for your amplifiers. But I think most people's gear, in most parts of the world, might benefit from a little voltage regulation and filtering.

As far as Golden Ears go... sure, there are folks in the business that set themselves up as cult leaders. But everyone does not hear the same, nor respond the same to what they do hear. I noticed long ago, flat frequency response is totally lost on some people, while others are not impressed by time alignment. Apparently our ears are not only sensitive to different things, they also auto-correct different things. As I implied earlier, while perfect reproduction is the goal, we're not there yet, and what's "best" for each of us will depend on what allows us to maintain our personal "suspension of disbelief". Me, I like big and I need loud. My wife on the other hand, is perfectly willing to believe there's an orchestra in that little box, and it's playing the fortissimo parts softly. :innocent:
 
#19 ·
I thought I would end up disagreeing with several points, but he always qualified his statements right at the end:

-Speakers and headphone potentially benefiting from break-in
-LP superior to CD because of mastering differences
-Bi-wiring is not bi-amping

It is interesting to see the people who do disagree though.
 
#20 ·
Those who disagree should state why they disagree... just as James did about the power conditioner. Obviously it made a difference and it would be nice to know why it did if anyone would have an idea. I meant to make it a public poll, but I guess I forgot to check the button.
 
#22 ·
It certainly is fun to think my DIY $100 GC amp has less THD than a $12,000 valve amp. :yay:
 
#23 ·
Hello,

I agree with many of them except:

Cable - I can hear a difference between a 5$ analog interconect and a well home made interconect build with quality canaire cable and good RCA plugs. So I am not ok to say that interconect analog cable does not make any difference in sound. Also, if cable make difference in sound, that does not mean that one cable is more HI-FI than another. But I totally agree that AC cables does not make any difference.

Valve amp - Again, the sound is not better with a vacuum amp, it is different. This is the same case with vinyl over CD. If we say that there is no difference between different amplifier or source, so why dont we buy all the same brand and at the lower price possible ?

The Power Conditionner - Here it depends. If your AC line is clean, no groud loop, no RF interference in your video line, the conditionner will not give you much improvment. But this is not my case. The Power Conditionner give me a cleaner sound and video over cable. This is a fact. Many of recent audio component are cheeper than some vintage one and the AC filters are cheeper. So the PowerConditioner could prevent from AC fluctuation (thunder) and protect your components.

Any comments ?
 
#24 ·
Cable - I can hear a difference between a 5$ analog interconect and a well home made interconect build with quality canaire cable and good RCA plugs. So I am not ok to say that interconect analog cable does not make any difference in sound. Also, if cable make difference in sound, that does not mean that one cable is more HI-FI than another. But I totally agree that AC cables does not make any difference.
I think you misread what he said about this. I would say you could hear a difference between "some" $5 interconnects and a good home made or otherwise quality built interconnect, but not all. Why? Because you can buy and build a very good interconnect for $5. You may have to buy the connectors and wire in bulk to get to the $5 price point, but it can be done.

I suspect if you hear a difference, then there is something faulty with one cable or the other.

To quote the writer: The lie is that high-priced speaker cables and interconnects sound better than the standard, run-of-the-mill (say, Radio Shack) ones.

He qualifies his claim: The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections.



Valve amp - Again, the sound is not better with a vacuum amp, it is different. This is the same case with vinyl over CD.
Again, I think you misunderstand his claim. He does not say that they are not different, in fact he very much says they are different. No doubt vinyl and CD are different as well.

Here is the lie: Unbelievable! And so is, of course, the claim that vacuum tubes are inherently superior to transistors in audio applications—don’t you believe it.

Whatever vacuum tubes can do in a piece of audio equipment, solid-state devices can do better, at lower cost, with greater reliability. Even the world’s best-designed tube amplifier will have higher distortion than an equally well-designed transistor amplifier and will almost certainly need more servicing (tube replacements, rebiasing, etc.) during its lifetime.



The Power Conditionner - Here it depends. If your AC line is clean, no groud loop, no RF interference in your video line, the conditionner will not give you much improvment. But this is not my case. The Power Conditionner give me a cleaner sound and video over cable. This is a fact. Many of recent audio component are cheeper than some vintage one and the AC filters are cheeper. So the PowerConditioner could prevent from AC fluctuation (thunder) and protect your components.
Again, I don't think you disagree with him. He qualifies the lie: “All Bryston amplifiers contain high-quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF, line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require specialized power line conditioners. Plug the amplifier directly into its own wall socket.” What they don’t say is that the same is true, more or less, of all well-designed amplifiers.

The biggest and stupidest lie of them all on the subject of “clean” power is that you need a specially designed high-priced line cord to obtain the best possible sound. Any line cord rated to handle domestic ac voltages and currents will perform like any other. Ultra high-end line cords are a fraud.
 
#25 ·
I also think it's interesting how all it takes is one time, and you're sold, the exception that proves the rule so to speak.

I could use 50 random cables, and the one time I hear any difference, good or bad, I'm sold on expensive cables.

Don't get me wrong, we all generalize. I have had great experiences with monoprice, and because of that, I recommend them for every situation. However, I don't feel bad about it because monoprice saves you money. If you buy 3 cables from monoprice and the third one is junk, 3 monoprice cables and one Monster cable (ought to replace the defective monoprice one) still cost less then just buying 3 Monster cables (or 2, or 1.1 for that matter).
 
#26 ·
This is a multiple choice poll, however, if you vote that you agree with all or disagree with all, do not vote on the individual questions or your votes will be deleted.

Do you agree... if not, then why not? (This is not an option... it is a requirement as part of the poll!) If you do not agree, then you must post why you do not agree or your vote will be stripped.

This is a public poll... click any vote # to see how members voted. If you see more members listed than number of votes, it is because they voted more than they were supposed to (see above) and/or their vote was stripped because they have not complied with the initial post requirements.
 
#27 ·
Do you agree... if not, then why not?
Well, I generally agreed with all of them except for the bi-wiring theory..... which said in part:

- biwiring is pure voodoo. If you move one pair of speaker wires to the same terminals where the other pair is connected, absolutely nothing changes electrically. The law of physics that says so is called the superposition principle. In terms of electronics, the superposition theorem states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network will result in a current which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually.
True, of course, but it assumes that the bi-wire speaker cables present a zero impedance, and that distortion from one driver will not affect the performance of the other driver.

Superposition only holds true for a linear system. Bi-wiring will only theoretically be a benefit when drivers distort and linearity is no longer maintained.

With sufficient voltage a driver can deviate from ideal linearity so the current in that connection between the low output impedance of the amplifier and the woofer (in this case), will carry harmonic distortion components which can create intermodulation products. In a simple non-bi-wire situation, the tweeter driver terminals will see these distortion components through the speakers low to zero impedance straps (when a single non bi-wire set of cables is used).

The theoretical advantage is now valid if you assume a set of bi-wire speaker cables has some finite impedance (obviously, the longer the cables, the more pronounced the effects will be). When bi-wire cables are used rather than single wires with straps, the distortion components (caused by the woofer driver) will have a lower impedance path to the amplifiers low output impedance sink, rather than travel back and down the tweeters speaker cable.

Yeah, you're right, it's a small advantage and you could argue that the tweeters crossover would help to reduce the problem, but I suppose you could argue that the harmonic and intermodulation products will be at a higher frequency and may pass through to the tweeter driver.

The entire advantage is gained by asking this question. From the perspective of the woofer driver terminals, which is the lower impedance path to the tweeters driver terminals? Is it a set of straps in a non bi-wire situation, or is it the route of a set of bi-wire cables that has a theoretical ideal voltage source (amplifiers low output impedance) in the path?..........

Oh, did I mention that the benefit would be about the same result as attempting to slow your car down by putting your hand out the window? I never said you could hear the benefits of bi-wiring, I just said that the theory is there to not vote yes to the poll question........

brucek
 
G
#28 ·
Although I'd have to agree with the "cable lie", I do think he should have mentioned something about the build quality may have an effect on the longevity of the cable. It doesn't take long for a cheapo cable to become worthless after a few twists, bends, etc.


I'm also surprised we haven't heard more objections to the "burn in" myth. I've always been skeptical about it but on the other hand I've also had many people swear by it.
 
G
#30 ·
Great thread, great article. I disagree with many of the conclusions but still it was a good read.

Cables: Well, I believe the primary difference is psychological and as such is "real" to a different level for each individual. For instance, if I know which cables are in use and I favor their appearance, they will sound better to me than cables whose appearance I do not like. They could be identical in every way except the color, and it could skew my perception. We should not dismiss the power of the human psyche, it can (and does) create physical reactions.

So do some wires sound better than others? Yes, I believe they do.

Vacuum tubes: I like them better (for my music), they sound better to me. Everyone acknowledges there is a difference between the tube sound and the SS sound. I prefer the tubes for my music and the SS for my films. They both have a place and I'd hate to see either go away. I dont believe one is inherently superior.

Digital: Eh, bad digital sounds bad...bad analog sounds bad. They can both sound bad, or good. I dont think it is as much to do with the medium as it is with the mastering.

Listening Test: I've never put much stock in them. They seek to eliminate the psychological input mentioned above. In real world applications the psychological influence is unavoidable, so eliminating it from a test sort of makes the test unimportant to me. Not invalid, just unimportant.

Bi-wire: Bi-Wiring does no good that I could ever hear. Bi-amping is another story in my experience.

Power conditioners: I wouldnt be without them. I have many. They work for me...even if only psychologically. :)

CD treatments: Never heard any difference. I thought I did once, but upon further listening...nope.

Golden ears: Barring any physical hearing impairment everyone should be able to hear the same things. The training is where the differences come in. Just as a layman may look at visual art and does not comprehend what is being conveyed while the schooled viewer does...so can the untrained listener miss many of the details in a music reproduction that a practiced listener will pick up on.

OK, my first "real" post....hope I did OK :)

Mike
 
#33 ·
Hey Mike I agree with you almost across the board and my experience mirrors yours but I do think before the loudness wars started Vinyl clearly sounded better but even some of my $30 new albums sound terrible because of balls out levels and compression.
Far too many wires are a joke and scam but there are clearly wires that alter the sound in a desired way (and thats what we are after) I too use tubes for music and also agree with you there, I am on the fence with Bi-Wire as it helped in my dad's system but I have failed to hear anything more times than not, I bi-amp with outboard crossover so I know that works great (second set of speakers I have bi amped...........everything else is spot on Mike, nice post!
Hey Mike whats in your rig? Mine is posted if you care to browse.........cheers
 
#31 ·
nahh, ya did good. A lot of what you say is true, and is certainly true for you and your listening. In fact, I doubt people could quibble with what you said and how you said it.

I think he (and certainly I) take exception to the push in high end audio/video that cables (for example) make an actual audible difference due to it's secret herbs and spices if you will - often violating the laws of physics mind - and often charging outrageous prices into the bargain.

I'm a definite cable skeptic......but I cannot find anything I disagree with in what and how you wrote your response.
 
#32 ·
Hmmm... psychologically speaking... I hope I never spend extra money just so I can psychologically believe there is a real difference when in reality there is no difference. That would make me psycho... :dizzy:

I will be okay as long as others do not try to sell me on snake oil and myths. If someone wants to play-like they hear a difference, I do not have a problem with it. :bigsmile:
 
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