"There is no replacement for displacement" or is there?

5774 Views 25 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Ryan Anderson, Nov 15, 2009

Ryan Anderson

Discussion Starter · Nov 10, 2009

Great big linear drivers that can handle the power required to push them in large vented enclosures. Regular drivers in super efficient horns. How can they compare? Do they compare? Using the same driver, can you load 1 in a horn and make it out perform 4 of the same drivers in an LLT? Now I know you want high excursion drivers in LLT's but high efficient drivers in horns... but I hope you get my question.

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

looneybomber

· #2 · Nov 10, 2009

The downside is folded horns need huge enclosures in order to tune low. Tapped horns don't need to be quite as big as a folded horn but I'm not educated enough on either to discuss them in a worth while manner.

I know I like the sound of folded horns.

Ryan Anderson

Discussion Starter · #3 · Nov 10, 2009

well if 1 driver and 1 large enclosure is equal in output to 4 mid sized enclosures, wouldn't you rather 1 large tapped horn over 4 small-medium sized.... plus less power required.

ignoring the smoothing capabilities of 4 separately placed enclosures...

looneybomber

· #4 · Nov 11, 2009

Well, let's start putting titles to these drivers. DTS-10 vs. SDX-15's or Tempest-X's, etc...

I'd love to have 2 to use as a riser for the couch, but can't afford it. 1 would be nice, and you could build it into a riser. I, however, am not owning a house so I still move around periodically and moving a big ~300lb sub would SUCK! Moving 4 medium sized 15" subs is much easier even though there would likely be a drop in performance.

SteveCallas

· #5 · Nov 11, 2009

The parameters for a good driver suited to horn use are different than the parameters for a good driver suited to LLT use. Horns have huge displacement, it's just the driver that is used in the horn that doesn't have large displacement.

I've yet to see a horn subwoofer design that offers a better balance of performance than a good LLT dollar for dollar.

Ryan Anderson

Discussion Starter · #6 · Nov 11, 2009

OK... so this DTS-10 SUPER SPUD. What would I have tio do to a 21" maelstrom-X to equate it? Or, would a 21" Maelstrom-X easily beat it?

SteveCallas

· #7 · Nov 12, 2009

Has it been measured?

DrWho

· #8 · Nov 12, 2009

SteveCallas said:
I've yet to see a horn subwoofer design that offers a better balance of performance than a good LLT dollar for dollar.

I can't imagine that you've seen very many horn designs then...

Any driver will perform better after putting a horn in front of it.

michael hurd

· #9 · Nov 12, 2009

DrWho said:
I can't imagine that you've seen very many horn designs then...

Any driver will perform better after putting a horn in front of it.

I'd rephrase that to "Any driver will perform better after putting a 'PROPER' horn in front of it.

Case in point, the same driver that can be used in a small sealed box will not necessarily work better in a tapped horn, however it may work fantastic in a big bass horn. ( folded or straight )

It's all in the parameters. Same goes for a driver that works well in a sealed box, it may not be any good at all in a vented box.

Ricci

· #10 · Nov 12, 2009

Yep. Granted I'm no jedi yet, but just from talking to Tom through e-mail and fooling around in HR for the last few months I can say that some drivers just flat out don't do well in a TH, while they may rock in a FLH or ported enclosure.

Mike P.

· #11 · Nov 12, 2009

SteveCallas said:
I've yet to see a horn subwoofer design that offers a better balance of performance than a good LLT dollar for dollar.

I had this assumption also until I read "mynym's" comparison of a 15" Tuba HT compared to a 18" LLT. He states the Tuba wins hands down.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1194093

fredk

· #12 · Nov 12, 2009

Mike P. said:
I had this assumption also until I read "mynym's" comparison of a 15" Tuba HT compared to a 18" LLT. He states the Tuba wins hands down.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1194093

Above 20 Hz that is. Somewhere near the end he states that the LLTs hit harder for the below 20Hz stuff even though the two measure about the same in that range. He does have a lot of LLT woofage in his theater though...

The THT would be tempting to play with if I were not at the top of a 3 floor walkup building.

Mike P.

· #13 · Nov 12, 2009

From what I gather from his comparison the overall HT experience was better with the Tuba. Which would make sense since there is more information above 20 hz than there is below.

SteveCallas

· #14 · Nov 13, 2009

I just looked over that thread and a few things stand out to me.

1) This guy was apparently lacking output from the LLT to begin with. I can't say that is normal - most don't approach the limits of a high excursion 18" LLT....about 115db in room down to the low teens.

2) If he was lacking output to begin with and getting compression, then a sub that has more headroom in the 25hz+ department will sound better. That seems to be what happened.

3) There is simply no way the horn digs anywhere near as deep as the LLT, not by a longshot, not even close. His in room measurement that goes down to 2hz is not legit, he must have improper mic calibration settings. That horn subwoofer enclosure is a mere fraction of the size it would need to be to dig as deep as his LLT.

I maintain my point that a LLT offers better balanced performance for the dollar than a horn sub.

myn

· #15 · Nov 13, 2009 (Edited)

4

SteveCallas said:
I just looked over that thread and a few things stand out to me.

1) This guy was apparently lacking output from the LLT to begin with. I can't say that is normal - most don't approach the limits of a high excursion 18" LLT....about 115db in room down to the low teens.

2) If he was lacking output to begin with and getting compression, then a sub that has more headroom in the 25hz+ department will sound better. That seems to be what happened.

3) There is simply no way the horn digs anywhere near as deep as the LLT, not by a longshot, not even close. His in room measurement that goes down to 2hz is not legit, he must have improper mic calibration settings. That horn subwoofer enclosure is a mere fraction of the size it would need to be to dig as deep as his LLT.

I maintain my point that a LLT offers better balanced performance for the dollar than a horn sub.

I wasn't really lacking output in the LLT. I had no problems getting 114db at the tuning freq (14hz). What I wasn't getting with the LLT was great chest pounding midbass. The THT not only digs lower in the same room in an unideal location none the less, it does it with less power and ALOT more authority. And because the driver doesn't have to work as hard the distortion is inherently lower. The sound from the horn is soooo much more smooth and natural sounding. If you have ever heard a good quality horn you know exactly what I am talking about.

I'd be interested in hearing from other LLT owners. Are they capable of moving the fabric on the back of their sofa's with a 20hz signwave from 15 feet away, this with only 29 watts? Personally, my LLT was never capable of that, not even slightly with 1000 watts.

There is nothing wrong my mic or the calibration, I've done many tests in different settings (home and car) with many arrays of different subwoofers. Keep in mind that that my media room has a concrete floor and half of the wall is cinderblock. It also has doubled up studs with 10" of insulation. Horn's also more efficiently take advantage of room gain and boundary loading; Loading it into the corner effectively extends the horn flare.

My unequalized measurements confirm what my ears and body felt with the THT.

121db @ 22hz with only 10.8 volts or 29 watts! and Couch Moving:

Media Room Construction

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SteveCallas

· #16 · Nov 14, 2009

What mic and calibration file are you using? A horn subwoofer would have to be larger than even a large LLT to achieve similar low end linearity, let alone linearity down into the single digits. That response simply isn't possible unless you are using heavy EQ, which I don't believe you are.

Try reducing your spl and frequency scale, it may be hiding a lot of the story. Try a scale of 65db - 115db and 10-100hz.

myn

· #17 · Nov 14, 2009

SteveCallas said:
What mic and calibration file are you using? A horn subwoofer would have to be larger than even a large LLT to achieve similar low end linearity, let alone linearity down into the single digits. That response simply isn't possible unless you are using heavy EQ, which I don't believe you are.

Try reducing your spl and frequency scale, it may be hiding a lot of the story. Try a scale of 65db - 115db and 10-100hz.

Radio Shack Model 33-2055 Digital RS Meter with these correction values

myn

· #18 · Nov 14, 2009

fredk said:
Above 20 Hz that is. Somewhere near the end he states that the LLTs hit harder for the below 20Hz stuff even though the two measure about the same in that range. He does have a lot of LLT woofage in his theater though...

The THT would be tempting to play with if I were not at the top of a 3 floor walkup building.

I never stated that. The THT does better overall below and above 20hz in contrast to my LLT in my media room.

fredk

· #19 · Nov 14, 2009

myn said:
I never stated that. The THT does better overall below and above 20hz in contrast to my LLT in my media room.

Yeah, I went back and re-read the thread at AVS. I think I am mixing up different threads.

I always looked at the measurements on Bill's site and saw a drop off at 20 Hz. I figured those were in room measurements.

looneybomber

· #20 · Nov 14, 2009

myn said:
If you have ever heard a good quality horn you know exactly what I am talking about.

I do like folded horn sound, but do not like folded horn size. Why can't I eat my cake?

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