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Discussion Starter #1
other than complex to design, difficult to construct, and maybe more difficult to find a good driver for the application.... more money, more weight, possibly a larger size...

Why don't more knowledgeable and capable DIY'ers go this route? I specify knowledgeable and capable because obviously they are much more complex, so let's talk strictly about the elite.

Also, can i get some FR curves? I'd like to see some. I have spent hours and hours over the last couple of years playing with Bass Box Pro 6 and WinISD Pro, so i am very familiar with sealed and vented plots, namely IB and LLT as I generally play with HUGE airspace numbers, a little with bandpass, but no TL's or horns... unless you count Pete "Hexibase" Kuliki's T-Box designs...
 

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every speaker manufacture only have sealed & ported boxes recomended, so people thinks thats way to do it..

And in most cases they have set the "rules" for building TL to high, it's not that serious with TS values and that tunning on a TL must be same as FS on the driver, it don't have to be a complex wood constuktion, pipes is much easier to built with and are lighter to.
 

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Modeling TL's was a hit and miss proposition until Martin J. King introduced accurate modeling software called MathCad. The software was being abused by manufacturers so he pulled it and it's no longer available.

http://www.quarter-wave.com/

A popular horn design modeling program is Horn Response from David J McBean.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/

Both MathCad and Horn Response are popular topics at diyaudio.com. There are lots of threads devoted to both there.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=63
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Modeling TL's was a hit and miss proposition until Martin J. King introduced accurate modeling software called MathCad. The software was being abused by manufacturers so he pulled it and it's no longer available.

http://www.quarter-wave.com/

A popular horn design modeling program is Horn Response from David J McBean.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/

Both MathCad and Horn Response are popular topics at diyaudio.com. There are lots of threads devoted to both there.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=63
Thanks guys, that gives me something to play with tonight!
 

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I'M looking forward to see the size of your sub horn :bigsmile: 10X10 feet seriously a horn to go low will have to be extremly large, look at the Klipsch Belle and cannot go any lower then 60 hz even cornered. It all about the size of the opening of the horn and not really interresting for most people out there to see mamouth in there living room so PR,vented or IB is easier to do to get in low 10-15 hz.
 

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The limit to low frequency extension in horns, tapped horns, and transmission lines is the length of the horn. 4x the length is close to the lowest frequency you should expect. The size of the moth affects how well coupled the driver is to the free space of the room...tapped horns try to improve the coupling by using the rear wave.

Anyways, I too am surprised that there is less DIY horns out there. If you can live with the size, the distortion levels are going to be orders of magnitude less. It's my heavily biased opinion that horns are where the real audiophiles are at ;)
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Discussion Starter #7
The limit to low frequency extension in horns, tapped horns, and transmission lines is the length of the horn. 4x the length is close to the lowest frequency you should expect. The size of the moth affects how well coupled the driver is to the free space of the room...tapped horns try to improve the coupling by using the rear wave.

Anyways, I too am surprised that there is less DIY horns out there. If you can live with the size, the distortion levels are going to be orders of magnitude less. It's my heavily biased opinion that horns are where the real audiophiles are at ;)
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My sentiments exactly. For as much money as we spend, for the space we already dedicate, why are so many "hardcore DIYer's" affraid to take up some room? If I had the money, I certainly would not be afraid, I would boast... check out this HUGE horn i have for a 22" driver tuned to 10Hz....

So between a video I saw last night thinking the guy mispronounced tapered as tapped, I see thats not the case... What is "tapped"?
 

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Tapped Horn:
http://www.cowanaudio.com/th.html
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

Btw, the whole point of horns is that they dramatically reduce the amount of effort required from the driver. Going to a huge driver doesn't necessarily gain you anything either since you're limited to the air velocity through the throat (same physics that cause port chuffing, except it's worse cuz all of your sound goes through the throat).
 

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A regular FL or RL bass horn will be very large to get loading down to even 25hz. A TH is a much better set-up for bass IMO because the size can still be somewhat reasonable. The SQ is supposed to be quite clean but again if you are trying to get much below 20hz the size will be Grande. Doesn't seem like any kind of horn is going to be very useful below 16hz-20hz due to the size getting quickly way out of hand. If you are looking for a HO music system or only need 25hz to 30hz extension the TH looks like a real winner. I'll probably be building one myself in the spring but I'm not sure what the goals are for it exactly yet.

Jordan you seem obsessed with the range below 20hz. Horns and TL's aren't the answer for that. Just stick with multiples of very high displacement drivers, lots of amplifier grunt, and sealed boxes or IB for that. Then x-over into the TH's at about 30hz.:bigsmile:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Jordan you seem obsessed with the range below 20hz. Horns and TL's aren't the answer for that. Just stick with multiples of very high displacement drivers, lots of amplifier grunt, and sealed boxes or IB for that. Then x-over into the TH's at about 30hz.:bigsmile:
You've got it :D
 

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Did you say sealed? :bigsmile: Big, monstrous ported would be the way to go for massive amounts of sub 20 hz output. :yes:

hehehehe I didn't want yet another debate, so i was being agreeable... WE agree on something Mike! haha! I am just debating which box... the smaller 13Hz or the larger 20Hz... by smaller, the external dimensions are the same for both, but the port takes up a lot of airspace in the lower tuned...
 

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Heh. I'm not wanting to argue either ,but porting below about 10-11hz is just not feasible. Beleive me I know. I've got one of the biggest most retarded ported subs around and it's tuned to 11hz. I love that SW and in no way am I underwhelmed by it or disappointed in it's performance at all. I just figure if I've come this far already why stop at 10hz. I know what you are thinking. No one needs single digit bass and all that. The way I see it you could argue that no one needs 16hz bass either, or 20hz, or that for most people 25hz is great (and in truth it is).

I'm no sealed fanboy or for any other alignment for that matter. You have to recognize that all of them have strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure you guys saw my comparison thread between the ported and sealed XXX SW's using everything the same except the cabinet. The ported dominated IMHO and showed that one on one as long as you are using the ported above it's tuning and it is well designed it will outperform the sealed. The problem is that the ported is 3 or 4 times the size of the sealed. I don't mind a big subwoofer or 2 but even I have limits. I can tell you that the ported may outperform a pair of the drivers sealed in the very low bass around the port tuning, but 3 or 4 sealed will be a no contest. I wonder If I had included a TH sub in, how things would've fared between the TH and ported...:nerd: Makes you wonder. I'd bet on the TH in it's intended range.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I agree completely, large excursion and large Sd for overall Vd, power, and ported. I think if I ever do a dedicated and/or HT, 10Hz will be the tune, but for my daily car somewhere between 10 and 20Hz.

I read your comp of the 2 15's vs the 18... I wonder how this 22" coming out would compare to the 18XXX overall... finally a sub that might keep up with the displacement, but 22" takes up a lot more room than an 18!
 
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