[mwmkravchenko]

Difference? What difference?

Here's the long and the short of it. Every doubling of power input raises the volume by 3 db. The same is true for halving the power = less 3 db. The good side is that 3 db is where most people just notice a difference.

Nice box!

Looks strudy and good quality pics.

Your well on the the way to Boomdom!

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

I lika the veneer!

Is this your first time veneering or are you an old Pro?

You sure have good taste that's for sure. Beautifull stuff.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

I have had allot of wood working and finishing experience both professionally and personally. I dont generally do things by the book, but opt for my own way using the limited tools that I have learning along the way.

have a look at the speakers I built in the link on my signature. I used the same veneering methods I plan to use here.

They look marvelous!

So how did you glue down the veneer? The job looks very good. I have done a fair bit. But I cheat and use different methods like a vacuum press and other methods. Been a professional cabinet maker off and on for over 22 years.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

what I would give for a vacuum press! thought of making one but the idea didnt last long. I use contact cement for the most part, up until now I have had no issues with delaminating so I hope they will stand the test of time Think I will be fine.

If you have an air compressor you have 3/4 of a vacuum press. The last quarter is making a bag. Easy to do. And then using the input on the air compressor ( the side where there is usually a filter actually sucks air into the compressor right! ) to create a vacuum in the bag. To make a bag use what ever you have on hand. I've used heavy vapor barrier or the bags I make for reuse are the plastic old ladies cover everything with! You know the kind. I use Tuck tape the red stuff to seal it up on the edges. Any normal air compressor fittings work in vacuum or compressed mode. And to seal up the bag I roll it over itself and clamp it between two boards. Once the vacuum sets it self seals.

You can draw about 14 psi with a vauum press which is over one ton per square foot. I've broken objects by drawing to high of a vacuum with my pump that I picked up from a surplus store 15 years ago.

As for finish and filler.

Lacquer has only one redeeming quality. It dries fast. I personally use it on commercial stuff only. It has no durability in a home environment. You want a good polyurethane. Water borne is faster drying but not as hard as solvent borne. For easy to get stuff try Home Despot and MinWax urethane fast dry. You can put on three coats in a day with it. I know it is much slower than lacquer but it is resistant to water and most cleaners unlike lacquer. As for filler if you like Mohawk stick with it. They make good stuff. MJ Cambell also make good stuff. I sometimes also use Elmers fill n finish from Home Despot. The golden Oak is almost uncanny in it's ability to blend in. And a couple of others can be blended to color most problems away when needed.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Thanks mark, I would love to see some pictures or tutorial on your vaccume press in action. you make it sound easy

Sure it's easy. First you remove the word can't from your vocabulary and you replace it with "will find out what I have to do to get it done!"

Somehow I think your 95% the way there on that one.:R

A tutorial ouch. You aren't asking for to much eh!

A bag, a hose a platen with lines scored in it to let the air out around the pressed object. A tire valve stem in a hole in a big plastic bag sealed with shoe goo and voila. You hook this mess up to a air hose and the sucking end of a air compressor and you get a vacuum press. The rest I'll have to do with pictures on some of the builds I post later. ( the unofficial short short version )

I envy a properly trained finisher by the way. I went to watsamattau. I'm pretty good at it now but it was one steep learning curve. Pretty much sink or swim. At least I can spray water borne finish and it behaves for me. :whistling:

Have you had any luck with spraying the minwaxx product?

The Minwax stuff sprays well it is not a fast dry as you know but it is durable. If you have access to Post Catalyzed you get a decent finish with that stuff. I'm strictly water borne now. To allergic to the solvents in the other stuff. I only spray solvent based when I absolutely have to.

If your contact cement method works well good for you. But in 10 years you may be in for some fun depending on the type you used.

Another way is this:

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/iron-on-veneering.htm This one is trying to sell you a fancy glue. But there are some decent tips on how to.

http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html This one is all how to.

Just clean the iron and put it back. It's all downhill from here if your wife finds out your handy and know how to iron:rolleyesno:

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

You know if you keep gluing things on that box it's gonna sound good and look classy. You realize that once you pull that off people come to expect that all the time!

Oh I just have to be bad sometimes. Make people appreciate it when I'm good.

Mark:neener:

 

[mwmkravchenko]

I like the depth you achieved.

Is that wet or dry with the pepsi can?

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hey John

Lookin good.

It's funny I have the same polisher I think. I got mine from Princess Auto. Works like a charm and cost me $35.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Well mines behaving. Take it back as long as they have one they will replace it.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Nice x 2

I think that cheapo polisher is still earning it self a place in your shop!

Hey I see you have a munchkin visiting!

What do you mean bad focus!

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hi John

Hope everything turns out well for the next kid. I have two and the first one was a C section. Not fun to feel so helpless being a big guy. I weigh the same as you! But mine are almost 14 and 16 now. You'll cope!

Now for your cold press glue. I have seen it and never thought it was worth it. But to press your top your are going to need a of a lot of clamps.

One thing about veneering that you probably already know is that compatibility with the substrate is the biggest factor to worry about. The thickness of the the veneer is what limits it's ability to expand and contract to much when it is glued down. MDF is about 8% to 10% uniform expansion in all directions. It will be a great substrate for your veneer.

If you are stuck buy a whack load of sand bags at Home Despot or where ever has a good return policy and stack them up as high as you can. Tamp down the sand and it will give an even pressure. Pile on as much weight as you have at hand. A vacuum press does 14.6 PSI at my elevation. That's a lot of pounds per square foot 2104 pounds. So park your car on top!

MArk

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hey John

I have to say the pictures do not do the job any justice! It's going to look great.

A thing I should have told you about using glue like you did is that it will cause ripples because of excessive water retention in the veneer. I know. Now I tell you!

Here is what I would use next time. Polyurethane glue on the substrate. And a water mist on the veneer. Then use your Home Despot donated weights.

Ok the fix. Anybody can make mistakes but it takes a true craftsman to fix em!

Make a slit with a knife in the center of the bubble and put in some glue. Use a tooth pic or even the knife blade. Then clamp it down with either a C clamp or F clamp. If it to far in side the top then use a small block and a longer board. Place the block on the area you want pressure on and clamp down either end onf the longer board with your favorite clamp. This bends the board so that the pressure is greatest at the point where your block is.

Best to use a chunk of something that glue does not stick to well. Melamine comes to mind. Or use an interface layer like paper or plastic. Your inventive. You'll figure it out.

I know it's off topic for this thread but how did things turn out for the new little one? Good I'm hoping!

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

The only thing I have against contact cement and veneer is this. Over time it will fail. Contact cement does not like the seasonal shrinkage and contraction. I know your out west and it's drier. ( I grewd up in Manitoba ) But there are changes in humidity therefore changes in the veneer and substrate. The principle with veneer is that it is so thin that the woods tension created by the changes in size ( Oh yes wood objects change in size my friend ) is overcome by the adhesive. Contact cement has around 300 lbs/inch squared. Your yellow glue has around 1600 lbs/inch squared. That's the difference. The failure rate is around 6 to 10 years. If you are comfortable with that then go for it. If you still have flats and the sand bags. Then may I humbly suggest the polyurethane glue and a foam roller. As thin as you can roll on the substrate and then mist with water the veneer. It works well. But everything must have pressure on it or else the glue foams up and lifts the veneer.

One more trick for weight. Every litre of water weighs 1 kilogram or 2.2 lbs. A garbage can full of water is pretty heavy. Holes in the can? Use a bag.

Heres one more trick I have used when I'm up the creek with no boat paddle friendly rocks...

Take a piece of sheeting material about an inch bigger than your panel to be laminated. Get yeah some clamps about one for every 4 to 6 inches around the out side. Your panel size needs about 16 clamps. Go to princess auto when they are on sale John. I have two large drawers full of 6 and 12 inch F clamps.

Take your veneer and tape it in place like you have been doing. Put paper in the middle of the veneer about an eigth of an inch think then make a bit of a wide pyramid. The whole idea is this. The highest point of your pyramid should be about 3/16" higher than the outside edges. When you clamp down the board around the edges you can exert quite a bit of pressure from the middle out.

Another way is to use the same larger board and blocks and thinner boards to apply pressure to the center like the drawing below.

You have to apply the pressure as I have shown. If you curve the substate you will end up with a curved substrate when it dries. Bent lamination is a whole other ball game! They never unbend when the glue is dry.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

The shortest way to answer that question Mike is that I have used every type of contact cement you have named and a couple that John has mentioned. I never use the stuff on wood veneer. It fails as I mentioned.

Longer answer is that on commercial work that will be replaced before failure yes it gets used from time to time as it is a much faster method of applying flat veneer or curved veneers to panels. But as for longevity there are better methods. Iron on yellow glue method is one of the easiest and most forgiving. If John had used veneer tape to setup his book match and border he probably could have used the iron on method. You have to tape both sides when you need to play with setup a bit more than usual. Veneer tape is very thin and not a problem when under the veneer.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hi John

I'm just yakking about contact. It is an opinion. You have enough knowledge to make an informed decision. That is all I'm trying to aid. The failure rate is exactly what you describe. Heavy use and abuse. But that's what cabinets get up against in commercial use.

Urethane adhesives chemical reaction requires water as a catalyst. It is not really a true catalyst as in the sense of car paint or such. But without free water moisture the stuff takes forever to set. One side of a lamination is all that is required to be moistened.

With what you said about having only so much veneer. You definitely have the skills to do a good job with the contact cement. And I agree completely that the water borne stuff is much better than the solvent borne.

I have no specs on the iron on yellow glue method. What the heat is doing is creating a phase change. Like hot melt adhesive. Heat it up and it will re-harden together. Heat it up apply pressure and you should at least in theory get a better bond than contact cement. I have to put this stuff to the test on some samples and I will get back to you on that one. I have a whole bunch of prototype boxes I have to finish to keep some people happy! Maybe I can slip in some time on that job and get some actual comparisons.

I saw the coolest idea for a cheap vacuum pump last night. A guy used a pool air pump and hooked it up on the vacuum side of the pump. He measured 120 grams / cm^2 vacuum pressure. I get 1.7 lbs/ inch^2 or 1.7 * 144 = 245 lbs/ ft^2 A bit better than the weight idea. And about all you could generate with the clamp system I have used before.

Just for kicks and giggles I should take some pics of the next vacuum bag job. I have an actual pump I bought from princess auto about 20 years ago. But it can be done on your air compressor if you have one. Once you set up for that you will never go back to any other method. Bags can be made from 10mil polyethylene and tuck tape or even duct tape. And a double roll over a skinny board with some spring clamps will self seal the open end of the bag.

Just causing trouble and raising dust!

Sorry to post common sense thought John. You are not just a finisher I think. You probably have quite a bit of cabinet experience as well.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

First the complements. Beautiful. The inlay will really set things off nicely. I'm happy the test worked out well for the polyurethane glue. I should have told you about that stuff first. Brain damage from to much contact cement when I was young and invincible. At least that's my excuse!

I took a good look around princess auto yesterday. And they have a great fitting supply. I have a good understanding of what is needed but have a question, do you let the pump run continous for two hours or would it not be wise to use a automatic pressure shut of to cycle the pump on and off as required? I did not see one there. I would hate to put that load on my compressor for an extended time.

Oh I have to do this... Ever hear of a valve? It shuts things off and stops stuff from moving in and out of pipes. :rofl2:

I know I'm bad. But this is going to be one of those Doooh times.

You run the compressor given it is an oil lubricated compressor. It takes about 3 to 5 minutes depending on how big your bag is at the time and how much air you have squeezed out when closing it up. You have a ball valve in line and when you are happy that every thing has squeezed down to the point where it is actually tight you close the valve and shut off the compressor. Will it hold a vacuum forever? Probably not but it does give some time for your compressor to rest. Your gonna be watching it like a hawk for sure. Plus it's really cool to think that you are clamping with nothing but the pressure of 100 miles of air above you. Then your little brain will come up with all kinds of other things you can glue with type of a setup. You have to watch out. If you have already done some checking you'll find that the platen everything rests on should be cross hatched about 3/16" every so often to allow a path for the air to escape. I have snapped a couple of these when I'm pressing curved objects. On a flat you can break it but you have to draw quite a heavy vacuum to pull it off. Remember I use a dedicated vacuum pump. It is a rotary type compressor. But your air compressor will work quite well. If you are really sneaky you run a tank in line and shut off the system between the tank and the compressor and you have reserve vacuum just like you can have reserve compressed air when using a compressed air gun. But I digress. You have to cycle things every once and a while. You will get leaks from fittings just like with compressed air. SO my recommendation is to get a tractor tire metal valve stem and cement this to your bag close the end say about a foot back from the open end of the bag. You can also finangle some other fittings but you want as braod an ara as you can to glue the exit from the bag to the compressor or it will break loose quite quickly. I used shoe goo a couple of times and I have used silly cone as well. Flextra is another tenacious caulking. But here it is only available at Rona not Home Despot. Solder on a valve to the tire stem before so that there is no chance for a leak. If you have a fitting that will allow threading don't forget the teflon tape. If you figure out a different way to tap the bag make sure that the valve is as close to the bag as possible. And use a ball valve. I used a washer and seat type and it has always leaked. I'm going to change it over to a ball valve myself.

Pics of my setup will come in the latter part of January. My shop is being enormously revamped these past couple of weeks I'm trying to turn it from a setup and work shop to a well setup work shop and the vacuum pump and bag setup is in the shop attic. Not much doing up there. My setup is not al that pretty anyway. But it does work. I use it quite a bit when I have alot of flat P-lam to do. You never get lamination failure when you use yellow glue and it cycles in and out of the bag as high as you can stack it up in about 1/2 hour when you are doing doors and drawer ronts for comercial work. I had one client try to tell me that glue method would not hold. So I gave him a sample and offered the job for free if he could cause a glue failure. He paid for the job and was a happy camper to boot. But there are pics on the net that tell the story properly.

As for contact cement I think I'll stick with water based. It is better for my health as there are much less VOC's in the water borne stuff. I think it has come quite a ways from twenty years ago when we used to laugh at the stuff and say nothing holds better than solvent borne. The one I found to hold the best was formica brand from Richilieu. But the best of both is not even in the same league as the polyurethane you are planning on using.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hi John

I clamp Yellow PVA for about 1/2 hour as it sets easily in that amount of time. Urethane you have to read the bottle as they are different for each. My bottles say 3 hrs at I'm guessing room temperature. I have bottles of Elmer's polyurethane in the shop right now.

The trick is to not use any more glue than you need. I roll it on with a small foam roller. The kind you can get at Home Despot for painting. They are cheap and they usually come with a little tray the first time you buy them. It puts just a thin film on the pieces and it works well and sets fast.

Thanks for the link to the vacuum switch. I have been looking for a cheap vacuum controller for years but they were always crazy amounts of money. Around $200 last time I really looked about 10 years ago. This one is cheap even though I will have to setup a relay for my pump as it is quite a beast. I bought it. When you are working in a shop not having to pay close attention to something if you don't have to is worth the money!

I'll let you know how it performs if you'd like. But you would have to replace your pressure switch on your compressor to make it work. If you have an old compressor then great but if you need your compressor for regular duty then it is not of much use. There are surplus sites on the net where you can find cheap vacuum pumps from time to time. Vacuum can be used for all kinds of clamping and work holding where there is sometimes no other way to accomplish it. Tons of possibilities.

I have used hatched platen exclusively. Come on a cabinet shop always has scrap pieces kicking around right? I use the scrap to make a platen. Sometimes they last a while.

I have not used Urethane in a large layup as of yet. I have used a lot of urethane on projects for quite a few years but I have not done any large amount of vacuum pressing for at least 6 or 7 years. Clientele shift was one thing that changed my usage pattern. Divorce 13 years ago where my ex sold my complete shop for pennies kind of screwed up things for a while to! That's when I did some carpentry for a couple of years and then Graphics design for 2 years. Then back to good old cabinet making.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Looking great!
Like your application of the interior clamping. Those boards look like they are really putting on the pressure. Can't wait until you have some finish on it to really show off the contrast in the color.

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Hi John

I have been looking through the www.joewoodworker.com sight that explains all about vacuum presses. Wow I learned a couple of things to. Great sight. I used a timer switch on my pump so that I could set it up and let it run to draw a vacuum. Worked but not that much elegance behind it. I particularly like the idea of making vacuum reservoirs out of PVC pipe. Cheap and not dangerous. I was toying with the idea of using an old propane tank from my barbecue but it's a pain to find the right fittings.

When I ordered the switch I did not read enough of the sight to understand that there was a link to joewoodworker.com that explained a more thought out system for working with a bag and reservoir. You can't learn any more from me then is on that sight my friend. Great resource. Thanks again!

Mark

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Cheap is good as long as it works well. My timer switch did and does work. But it is not the best solution. But coupled with some vacuum reserve and that crazy little unloading switch I think it could be a very much better system fir less than a $100.

As for you if you want you can do the same type of setup with the compressor. I was thinking about this last night and it should work. If you make up the reservoirs and the un-loader system which by the way I think you can get the same solenoid valve from Princess Auto. I'll check on that one. You should be able to get a relay and wire it up to the compressor as if it was plugged into it. Just one big switch to turn it on and off at the will of the vacuum switch. You would need an oulet wired to the contactor side of the replay that the Vacuum switch could actuate. Normally a compressor starting current is 3 times the running current. That little vacuum switch does not have heavy enough contacts so they sell that relay to switch the greater load. You might even be able to pick up the relay locally. Save on the shipping.

Mark