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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, looking for some suggestions/feedback.

Things are finally settling around the house, the bills are paid, the Home Theater is unpacked, and I’ve got the upgrade bug. I’ve got 2 projects on the plate:

1) Projector Setup (Out of current budget/not enough time/less feasible)
2) New Dual Subs (easy to integrate, within budget)


So, I’m on the verge of making #2 a reality. I’ve really enjoyed the Aperion Bravus 8, so I want to stick with sealed for low-profile design and tighter response. Given the large volume of the space with the ceilings and open walls, clean, tight output is essential. I’m fairly happy with the Aperion, but the space is just too much for this little guy.

Budget: ~$1000

Most Likely Candidate:
Emotiva Ultra 12 ($798 shipped)
Based on the glowing Audioholics review, this seems like a safe bet.

Other Candidates:
SVS SB12-NSD ($1323.80)
ED A5s-300 ($1100)
Epik Dual Legend ($1043)
Chase Sub 10.2 ($800 before shipping)
Rythmik F12G ($1676)

I’ve been rolling around DIY, but I have to be honest with myself that my project list is as long as my arm, and if I DIY, my time cost will be so great that it will be a year before the project is finished.

Current Setup:
Onkyo 706
JBL S310ii (LR), S38ii (C), S26ii (SS)
Single Aperion Bravus 8 (sub), was a dual setup, but a faulty amp knocked me down to a single.

Room:
8’ Listening Position
Approx 13x14’
High, sloped ceilings (10-12’)
Open at back to kitchen and side to hallway, front room.



So, thoughts? Am I asking too much of a pair of $400 subs in this space? Should I wait a year and save up for one of the more expensive candidates? Anyone heard rumors of good sales coming down the pipe?
 

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You might want to the SVSound's SB-12 NSD's to your subs list. They are amazingly articulate. Have fun. Dennis
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yep, they are at the top of my "Other Candidates List" above, but at $500 more than the Emotivas, are a tougher pill to swallow.
 
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I have a Emo sub 12 and really enjoy it. I can't compare it to the more expensive counter parts, but it does sound very nice.

Something in my plate amp actually broke after about 6 months of ownership, but Emo quickly replaced it with about a week turn around.

Just for the warranty and customer support, I'd choose the Emo. The lowest price point doesn't hurt either.

Without knowing the sensitivity of the sub drivers, it's going to be hard to know if they will fill your space, but you would have a 30 day home trial. I can't imagine two of them not filling that space. I'm having trouble finding one of the independent test on them, but I'm pretty sure one was able to reach 111db. I've measured bass hits at 98db on mine without any audible distortion. Still felt like it had more in it, but my ears didn't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm having trouble finding one of the independent test on them, but I'm pretty sure one was able to reach 111db.
114db at 60hz: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/ultra-12/ultra-12-measurements

I rarely listen at reference, usually 6-10db down, so max output is not a huge factor. I would like extension down to 20hz of course(who wouldn't), but would be happy enough with 25 as that would take care of most of the music I listen to, and provide enough movie realism for my tastes.

Reconsidering the Epik Legends. At $1043 shipped, the Epik is still within my budget, and I'm willing to spend the extra $$ if the numbers say it makes sense. I'm certainly thinking about it
 

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Eugovector - the Emotivas are decent subs, but don't belong in this group IMO, they just won't be keep up SPL or extension wise. The Epik Empire doesn't reach much below 25 Hz, I don't know what that spells out for the Legend, possibly 30 Hz like the Emo?

The other subs are great candidates. The SVS and eD lean towards high output for home theater, the Chase and Rythmik are the more musical of the bunch. Consider the CS-10.2 as B-stock, the amp was located at the top, but CHT decided to go with another manufacturer, sealing the hole at the top and rear mounting the new amp. This is the reason for the price drop. I think that duals were priced at $750 + shipping at one time. Wouldn't hurt to ask them.

You mentioned $1000 as the budget, but have gone well over with some of the choices. In light of that, I highly recommend considering the Chase CS-18.T Series 2 or SS-18.T. I am a 2 channel guy and love how they handle music. Movies will raise eyebrows, too. Older Series 2 is B-stock, priced $100 less than the new SS cabinets and are shipping with a free pair of Danny Ritchie designed WAF-1 speakers.

Good call on choosing doubles of whatever you decide on, your living space lends itself well to sealed doubles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Another forum keeps trying to steer me towards the Outlaw LFM-1 EX at $1104 per pair. Am I wrong not to consider this and other ported subs considering I'm looking for the most accurate bass I can get even if it means giving up some low-end extension?

I got out the tape measure, and while it wouldn't be perfect, I can make the size work at the front of the room. The ONLY locations that will work functionally and aesthetically are the front 1/3 points and the front corners. Believe me, if I had less of an aversion to spiders, small spaces, and cutting big holes in my house, I'd be looking at a double sealed or IB setup in the crawlspace.
 

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If a vented subwoofer is appropriately damped and doesn't have vent compression issues, it will be tight and accurate.


There might be some group delay if you listen to notes with fundamentals near the vent region, but it's better to hear a very slightly late fundamental than to be hearing no fundamental at all (which is often the case with smaller sealed subs which roll off quickly below 35-40hz).

One issue of vented vs sealed is room gain. A vented sub can have too much deep bass after the room response is factored in and sound unbalanced - the "bloated" vented sound. A sealed sub in the same room will have less room gain because it has much less deep output. So you need to be willing to use equalization, because every room is different. Amplitude response is the NUMBER ONE contributing factor into subwoofer "tightness" so you NEED to be willing to equalize flat. After that it's just a matter of having plenty of usable output and extension with low distortion. One advantage of vented is that it normally asks less in terms of excursion out of the driver.

SO my point is, since you're going with multiple subs, that's what matters. Don't be too concerned with sealed vs ported. Getting 20hz (or lower) with sealed is a very expensive venture, especially if you're not DIYing.

The outlaws do seem like a good deal, although you're basically limited to 25hz as I would expect a very sharp rolloff below that point.

My recommendation would be a pair of Rythmik FV12s. These can be set to a 14hz extension which will give you a very low group delay with better deep output than a sealed sub. You still won't likely get meaningful output below 20hz with this extension mode but it will likely be the best choice above 20hz (ironically enough). With room gain you should be close to flat in-room, otherwise you can try out the 20hz and 28hz settings and see what you like. I definitely see it as a better choice than the sealed F12, but that's just me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Okay, after reading up as much as possible on the Rythmik FV12, I think you've convinced me. The footprint works, and they even discount for multiple subs purchased ($499 plus shipping). I'll have to save up for one more month to make the difference in price, but I'd been intrigued by servo subs for a while, so this will be a great opportunity to give it a go.

I may drop them an email to see if they can offer any accommodation for an HTS staff member.

Now, to see what it would take to get the projector setup going (mostly another $2k).

Thanks for your help everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
In the end, I was rightly steered by folks on the forums towards a ported sub. My room size and budget meant that to be satisfied with the extension on output of my sub, it would need some oomph, and I could only afford that if I went ported.

Of course, that means I need to compromise the aesthetics piece, which is a continuing conversation.

Right now, I'm leaning towards 2 Rythmik FV-12, but not only do I need to save a little more, but the rest of the household would only be okay with more and bigger boxes up front if we are able to move the couch back 3 feet, which means a bigger screen. So, we've decided to explore a larger overall upgrade which is 2 new subs and a projection setup (but that's a topic for another thread).

So, my budget has more than double, and the timeline pushed out several months to find out if the wiring if feasible, and the money will roll in. I'm having someone come over next week to give me some pointers on AV and power wiring, and the money will just take time as I scrimp and save.

If I had a smaller, sealed room, I would have gone with the Emotiva's in a heartbeat, especially at the current price on sale. But for my larger room, prety much everyone commented what I already knew in my heart...without a more serious subwoofer, I'd be itching for an upgrade again soon.
 

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I have dual Emo 12" subs placed against the front wall of a 16' x 22' room. Anyone that says these things dont do the deed, has not heard them. They literally shake my chair with out breaking a sweat. They look good, they are relatively light and easy to move about. I watched an old stand by for checking bass, War of the Worlds and my jaw dropped from the power and tunefulness present in the room.
This can also be said for the 4th installment of the die hard series. No more are there just booms and shakes, those booms now have a distinct and omni present tune to them when there is a tune to be had.
These things are killer for $798.00 delivered. I doubt you will find a better deal anywhere short of installing an IB into your room. Yes I did try other subs and they were nice, but these babies go deep and then go away. No overhang, no intrusion in upper levels, just Sub Woofer duties, exactly what they were made for.
 

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eugovector - I think you would be surprised what can be achieved in your room with sealed subs. The only advantage ported will give you is more output at and around the port tuning frequency. There are disadvantages, too.

Your room(s) doesn't look so big that properly EQ'ed sealed subs couldn't overcome it. Given enough power, sealed will dig deeper than ported and won't have phase issues. It would take dual 15" drivers, at least, in that space, though.

That said, I'm sure dual ported Rythmiks will do a fine job. If you are limited to 12" drivers, ported is probably the best way to go in your situation. What does Rythmik say about the matter, have you discussed it with them?
 

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i am hesitating betweem the emotiva and the rythmic. Which way did you go? would you mind sharing your experience?
Welcome to HTS, antheo!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
eugovector - I think you would be surprised what can be achieved in your room with sealed subs. The only advantage ported will give you is more output at and around the port tuning frequency. There are disadvantages, too.

Your room(s) doesn't look so big that properly EQ'ed sealed subs couldn't overcome it. Given enough power, sealed will dig deeper than ported and won't have phase issues. It would take dual 15" drivers, at least, in that space, though.

That said, I'm sure dual ported Rythmiks will do a fine job. If you are limited to 12" drivers, ported is probably the best way to go in your situation. What does Rythmik say about the matter, have you discussed it with them?
I'm going to email them pretty soon, once I have money in hand to make a purchase. Don't want to bother them to much before I can put cash on the barrel-head.
 

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Sorry to glom onto your thread, but I'm very interested to hear how your choices pan out and the thoughts going into them. I have a similarly-large room, and am looking to upgrade my sub as well... except I'm coming from a highly mediocre 10" Polk.

I actually placed an order for an Emotiva... just one for now, hoping to add a second later as funds permit. I'll admit to having qualms, however, about whether another option would have been better. I really wanted an SVS SB12-NSD (and eventually a pair!), but, like you, the extra cost was a bitter pill to swallow. Add in the fact that they're not even shipping them at the moment, and the less expensive options had an irresistible edge.

I've read nice things about Rythmik, but frankly, (a) I don't know too much about them, compared to others, and (b) the only affordable option is just plain too crazy tall to work in my installation. I need to keep it under 19" tall to fit under the end table where it will go. The Epik Legends were incredibly tempting... but I don't know as much about them, and honestly, I think the lack of any sort of a nice finish is an issue. At least the new finish on the Emos is a satin lacquer and not an ugly black laminate. But... should I have gone with the Epik? Price is close, although shipping is not free. Has anyone heard both that can compare them? And finally, moowee, my room is a bit bigger than the OPs, but I'm only going with one to start. I love the idea of dual subs, but I can't help but think (hope? pray?) that I'm going to see a pretty huge difference as it is, coming from my Polk to even the Emo 12, the least of the lot under consideration.

This is for 95%+ HT, and a little music on occasion. At at the moment, my budget truly is limited... too many other recent splurges! The $100 difference between the Emo and the Epik actually gave me pause, and the extra bump to the SVS really took it out of the running. (and yet...)

The room (click for bigger):



I've already purchased the Emo, which shipped Monday and so should be here soon (yay!) but I suppose I can still return it (and eat some shipping fees) if there is a compelling reason to go another way.
 

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This is an interesting thread. I guess everyone looks for something personal in all parts of their audio video system. Having experimented with many speakers, locations, set ups and related components, it is pretty clear that you can do a good deal with a small amount of money. When it comes to subs this is less true unless you are dealing with the online sellers. Subs made in China designed as sell through items with no middle man or B&M store can get the job done, with high quality for a very reasonable price. They all have money back warranties so one could hardly go wrong with any purchase. I went with the Emos because I have some of their electronics and have been very impressed, so on a lark I ordered the twin 12's.
I really do not know what everyone wants from their subs, but these will go as deep and loud as a "Normal" home theater owner would ever want or need. Unlike full range speakers or speaker monitors, there is a sound associated with those that must please ones sensibilities over a wide range of Hz. The sub on the other hand must play loud, low and be tuneful. IMO of course. How low and how loud will be owner dependent. But if, as in my case, one wants the full human hearing spectrum covered bottom up, these will do fine. If one wants to move walls, maybe a couple dozen Altec Lansing Voice of the Theaters would be more to your liking. The sound effects reproduced by subs are usually not real. So there is obviously an issue with trying to be accurate in an inaccurate world. A handgun sound cannot be reproduced in the home and in reality does not need a subwoofer to do it. Even a car accident does not have significant low frequency information in the....ahem...real world. I am happy, much better than the big name boxes and will keep there for a very long time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Kalini,

Please update us with your impressions of a single Emotiva Ultra 12 in that room. Our rooms are actually pretty similar in size once you factor in my kitchen.
 

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Kalini,

Please update us with your impressions of a single Emotiva Ultra 12 in that room. Our rooms are actually pretty similar in size once you factor in my kitchen.
Absolutely! I figured as much, looking over your floorplan... that's one reason I jumped in, since it looks like we're in similar positions. That said, you're coming from a nice sub and I'm coming from a very different, not nearly as nice one. (10" ported sub, amp rated at 100w rms/200w peak...by Polk)

The Emo should be delivered on Friday. I'm having a party that night, so if it arrives on time, hopefully I'll have time after work to get it installed, re-run Audyssey and get a feeling for how it does with music by comparison to my Polk. (bass-heavy dance and techno/trance stuff, for this party) Otherwise it'll be sometime over the weekend before I can install it and test it out with some movies.

I'll need to figure out a good film for testing and comparison... perhaps my Tron Legacy bluray will give the system the workout it needs... any other suggestions? There's probably a thread on this somewhere here, I know there is one over on AVS somewhere...

I live in a condo (at the moment... we're shopping for a house, but it's a rough market), so I can't REALLY let it fly, but hope to get some good impressions nonetheless.

-Kalani
 
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