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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All. This is my first post here, so I wanted to thank everyone first for all the info on this forum. I am very new to this so please forgive some of my lack of knowledge.

Here's my situation/setup:
1800 cubic foot room - 15x15x8 with one of the 15' walls open
Two sealed boxes each 4.76 cubic feet - They are built and I have to use one or both of these
Behringer EP1500 amp (400w x 2 at 4 ohms)
2 Shiva-X's 12" (dual 8 ohm driver)

I was going to go with 2 separate boxes until I read about dual opposing subs in one box and the benefit of such a setup. Here are my questions:

1. What do you guys think is the better setup in my situation? Two singles or one dual opposing? I am afraid that each of my boxes might be a bit big for 1 Shiva, but i am also afraid that 1 of my boxes is too small for 2 Shivas.

2. If dual opposing is the way to go, how close should the drivers be to each other. Anything else I should be careful of when using a dual opposing setup?

Below are the specs for the Shiva-X in case someone wants to do me a huge favor and run some numbers. Due to my lack of knowledge, I do not know how to run numbers on the dual opposing box.


Shiva-X Specs
Re: DC resistance of VC 3.60 Ohms
Le: Inductance of VC 0.90mH
Fs: Resonance frequency 19.6 Hz
Qms: Mechanical compliance loss 2.60
Qes: Electrical motor loss. .46
Qts: Total Q of driver .39
Mms: Moving mass 140g
Cms: Suspension Compliance 0.47 mm/N
Vas: Stiffness of driver scaled by cone size 169L
Sd: Area of the cone 506 cm^2
Vd: Total Diaphragm Displacement volume 2.65L
BL: Motor Strength 11.66
X-Max: One-way linear excursion 27mm
Pmax: Maximum power (music, not RMS) 600W
SPL: 86.3 dB 1W/1M 89.1 dB at 2.83 Vrms
Volume Occupied by Driver .15 cubic feet or 4.25L


Thanks for any help.
 
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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

ok. thanks. but i want to use the box(es) as is. the question is which setup would be better of the two options i have narrowed my choices down to.
 

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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

From what I understand it is better to have 2 separate subs as opposed to 2 Drivers in the one box...

Cheers...
 
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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

Thanks. I guess there is no love out there for the push push dual opposing sub box setup. Funny....b/c I thought there was something to gain with this design (less vibration, slight increase in output).
 

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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

When you place the two drivers in one box it is like having one subwoofer in-room. It is one effective point source due to the size of the wave in relation to the size of the device creating it.

That has both advantages, and disadvantages. The advantage is that you are going to get more output, because you won't have cancellation of some of the output from another device. You also get the cancellation of cabinet vibration. That isn't a huge deal to me but it is a bonus and if you can arrange the drivers for that configuration, without any cost, then why not? The other advantage of a single sub vs. multiple subs is that you only need to measure and equalize for one device. If you have multiple subs you need to measure & equalize two devices.

The advantage of multiple subs in multiple locations, is that you get smoother in-room response on average. There may be individual placement advantages also, depending on your room and application.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
www.diycable.com
 
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

Thanks Kevin. Good info.

Hmmmm, more output/less vibration/easier EQ vs. smoother in-room response (on average). With proper EQ, I can theoretically get close to the same "smoother" in room response with one sub as I would get with 2 subs, right?

If so, I think I am going to go with the dual opposing box.

A few questions on dual opposing the Shivas:
1. Is 4.76 gross cubes large enough for the 2 shivas?
2. Do you suggest poly-fill for that size box and 2 shivas?


Thanks so much for yor help and your products.
 
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Upset Customer

My two Shivas sound horrible below 35Hz. I sent you an e-mail Kevin, but no response. I call your number for your business, but no answer.

I have checked everything and all I get is a little output and a lot of rattle form the Shiva's below 35 hz or so.

I want a full refund immediately. I have spent two weeks designing a proper box, ordering parts, researching, and now the weak link in my setup is your Shiva-X's. Are you going to pay me for time spent and parts ordered?

I cannot believe that you told me these would play down to 20 hz cleanly. I am contacting the BBB if you do not send me an immediate full refund (including shipping costs) via paypal and free return shipping label.
 

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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

My two Shivas sound horrible below 35Hz. I sent you an e-mail Kevin, but no response. I call your number for your business, but no answer.

I have checked everything and all I get is a little output and a lot of rattle form the Shiva's below 35 hz or so.

I want a full refund immediately. I have spent two weeks designing a proper box, ordering parts, researching, and now the weak link in my setup is your Shiva-X's. Are you going to pay me for time spent and parts ordered?

I cannot believe that you told me these would play down to 20 hz cleanly. I am contacting the BBB if you do not send me an immediate full refund (including shipping costs) via paypal and free return shipping label.
Ok... let me take a deep breath, bite my tongue and go through this one issue at a time.

#1. I don't know when you emailed, but I don't have anything in my Inbox. I checked the Spam filter, nothing there. I just checked my voice mail and there are no messages from you.

I have been on/off the phone most of the morning, which is typical. I also spent some time out chatting with my neighbor and ran out and met my wife for a quick lunch so I easily could have missed a phone call, but.... I have voice mail and I don't have a message from you.

#2. I have sold hundreds of Shiva subwoofers at this point. I have a pretty good feel for how they work and I have had nothing but positive feedback from customers. If you are having a problem, it is either a problem somewhere in the system or the drivers are damaged, one of the two. I also think that there are enough people around here using them that I don’t have any need of being defensive concerning their performance.

#3. I can appreciate that you are not happy because you are not getting good results. I can also appreciate frustration for having difficulty in reaching me. I'm a one-man shop, I am not 100% behind the phone even when I am, I can only talk to one person at a time.

Having said that, I don't at all appreciate your manner in dealing with this. I am a good member in standing of the BBB. I have never had a complaint lodged against me so I've never needed their dispute resolution methods.

If you are the first... so be it. I'm not going to reward this type of behavior. If you send the drivers back, and they are in new condition, I'll refund your money minus the shipping cost and PayPal fees. If they have damage, I’ll inspect them to see what the damage is and try to determine how/why they are damaged. A refund will depend upon why they are damaged.

In terms of helping you solve your system problem. Under normal circumstances I feel an obligation to help people with system problems. Even though it may or may not be caused by my product, I try to get people headed in the right direction. I'm happy to help people. I spend much of my day consulting with people about subwoofer builds and I enjoy doing it. BUT.... I have no obligation from a business, nor a moral standpoint, to help someone who becomes belligerent. If you do so, you are on your own. I'm just not going to reward that kind of behavior.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
www.diycable.com
 
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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

I don't consider my response to be beligerent. I sent you an e-mail last night. I have called your shop 10 times today, yet no answer. I just called again, no answer. How am I supposed to know that you are a one man shop? How am I supposed to know that you did not receive my e-mail? Am I supposed to be clairvoyant?

All I am asking as that you refund me all of my money. These drivers don't work as you stated. Period. As I expected, you now expect me to pay for all shipping costs (both to me and back to you). That is not fair to the customer...period. Why should I pay anything for a product that does not work as stated? If it worked as stated, and I simply did not want the product, then it's on me. But that is not what is happening here.

Again I ask, will you please refund my money in full and send me free shipping labels?
 

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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

I don't consider my response to be beligerent. I sent you an e-mail last night. I have called your shop 10 times today, yet no answer. I just called again, no answer. How am I supposed to know that you are a one man shop? How am I supposed to know that you did not receive my e-mail? Am I supposed to be clairvoyant?
I would say your demands are pretty hostile. Maybe you do not intend them to be that way, but they are definitely coming across that way. We do have forum rules that explain we expect everyone to be reasonable and courteous.

The way you are suppose to know that he is a one man shop and that he did not receive your email is by reading his post above... he is telling you now that he is a one man shop and did not receive your email. He never stated that he expected you to have ESP.

Your tone is short, snappy and uncalled for, yet Kevin has been very calm and courteous. Please try to do the same going forward.

All I am asking as that you refund me all of my money. These drivers don't work as you stated. Period. As I expected, you now expect me to pay for all shipping costs (both to me and back to you). That is not fair to the customer...period. Why should I pay anything for a product that does not work as stated? If it worked as stated, and I simply did not want the product, then it's on me. But that is not what is happening here.
I have heard the Shiva's and I can assure you that they will play to 20Hz and lower... and they will do it effortlessly, provided you have them installed in the proper size box, wired properly and the amp setup correctly.

Let me ask you... what would be the purpose of Kevin advertising this product to do something that it did not do? Would he not be overwhelmed with complaints? Why would be have sold so many units if they did not perform below 35Hz? There are not many diy sub drivers made that do not perform below 35Hz. It we think about this rationally and logically... as Kevin says... there is something amiss.

Do you have REW setup and can you run a sweep so we can see the frequency response?

How about the settings on the EP1500... are you sure you do not have the 30Hz HPF set to ON instead of OFF? I know on some EP2500's there were problems with the cartoon diagram being wrong and when you thought it was OFF, it was ON... enough to cause anyone a headache. :blink:

Give us some size specs and show us some pics of your boxes and how you mounted the subs, etc. Let's see if we can work through it... if not, I am sure Kevin wants you to be happy. :T
 

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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

To be fair, Joe has been courteous on the phone. I am like anyone, if you approach me with hostility I'm not likely to respond in a positive way.

In terms of the problem with the system, it is not likely that there is a production issue that shows up in just two drivers. I've sent out a lot of Shiva-X drivers in the last couple months due to the Summer Sale. Out of all of those, I've had one that had a scraping coil and another with what I consider unacceptable cosmetic defects (the bottom of the motor was scratched). I replaced the rubbing coil free of charge (including all shipping) and I gave the customer with the cosmetic damage the option of returning the driver (free of charge) or getting a partial refund. He took the cash.

Those are the only two issues I've had. If you have a defect, it is highly unlikely that you received two drivers with the same problem. It is possible, but highly improbable.

The other issue Joe is talking about is one of bandwidth. I think he took something I said in a phone conversation out of context of how it was meant. He specifically wanted to know if the Shiva could play at 20hz. I don’t remember the details of the conversation but I’m sure you could take something I said during a verbal conversation out of context.

Sure… the Shiva-X will play to 20Hz, in the context of the right system. If you put it in a 2.35 cubic foot sealed box though, all you have to do is look at the Application Notes to see that the system isn’t going to plumb the depths. In a car it will, simply because you get gobs of cabin gain. If you put it in a huge room open to the rest of the house, you won’t. If you use it in a much larger sealed box, equalize it or run a vented system you can clearly get great extension with a Shiva-X. But what you get depends upon the context of how you build the system. Understanding what your building is the responsibility of the builder. I can put out Application Notes, specifications etc… but at the end of the day you have to read and understand them and build the system appropriately.


Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
www.diycable.com
 

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Re: New to Forum - 1st Post - What to do with 2 Shiva-X's and a Behringer EP1500?

Hi Gratfeul72 FWIW, I have always found Kevin to be most helpfull with my questions, I have Emailed him on numerous occations and got A response from him within 1-2 Days
In regurds to my Maelsrom-X + 2x PR18's subs x2...He knows His Stuff...

I know it can be very frustrating when things dont meet our expectations but then you should work backwards to fined what the problem(s) is..

IE:make sure your sub is configured correctly,cables, reciever settings.. next go back and look at the wiring of your drivers to be sure both voice coils on each driver are wired up correctly,Try the amp on A differant sub or speaker to confirm it not the Amp.
Working threw all the possibilitys first before making you final conclution about your Sub...

Work with Kevin to help you get the results you wanted from your DIY sub... After all it is in Kevins best intrest to have satisfide customers...

Hope this helps Cheers....
 
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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Well. Kevin has been in possession of the returned shiva's since last Wednesday. Honestly, I believe the rattling came mostly, if not all from one of the drivers, not both.


Here's the latest. You guys decide if I have been mistreated:

On Wednesday, he said he would have the Shiva's tested in a couple of days.

On Friday, I called to check on status. He said he would get to it on Saturday.

Today (Monday), I call him and he says has not had the time to get to them and test them. Then, he begins raising his voice at me b/c I am wondering why he cannot do what he has promised. He says he will get to them tomorrow morning, then hangs up on me without finishing the conversation. Yes, he hangs up on me.

This has been my problem with this entire process. Nothing has worked as promised.

Drivers do not work as promised. One is probably malfunctioning. Customer service is slow and really not up to par. Now I have spent much time and $420 on drivers that I have returned and have been in Kevin's posession for 5 days.

I don't doubt that Kevin is a "good" guy and is good at providing advice. I'm guessing that his drivers are pretty good, but at least one of mine was not. In this particular case, I feel that the product and customer service didn't work the way it was supposed to.
 

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I just pulled both out of their boxes and ran a quick frequency sweep on them. There is nothing that I can find wrong with either from a quick sweep. I'll run some T/S measurements on them in the morning.

I don't typically work on the weekends. Sometimes I come in on Saturday but it isn't listed as normal business hours on my site. I may have said I'll get to them tomorrow but sometimes I'm a knucklehead and don't know what day of the week it is. I do my best to get to returned items in a reasonable time-frame. Many places require 14 working days to process returns (not weekends and holidays). The drivers arrived here on Wednesday. They have been in my warehouse for 3 working days. I don't think that is an unreasonable time-frame. If you do, then I differ with you.

Just the same I'll update the returns section on my web site to reflect the amount of time people can expect before I process returns. I also encourage people to go to Parts Express or some other large vendor if they don't think they can work around my parameters. I'm not going to be all things to all people. If you expect instant service, I'm simply not able to always provide that level of support.


Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Kevin-
How about the fact that the tinsel (sp?) is frayed on one of the drivers? Just that fact alone, regardless of how the drivers are performing in your testing, should be enough reason for full refund including shipping costs.
 

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There is nothing wrong with any of the tinsel leads. What you saw in the picture was a very small string of adhesive from the glue. It isn't the tinsel. The T/S parameters all come out well within tolerance too.

It is most likely that it was a tinsel slap causing your noise. I couldn't recreate it here but I can make it slap if I bend it up at the post. All it takes is to push down the tinsel where it is soldered to the push terminal. Problem solved....

Due to this problem I've went through and re-wrote all my return & warranty information. I've updated it in all my documentation and on the web site to CLEARLY outline my policies about returns and the responsibility of users to troubleshoot problems. I've also outlined the expected timeline for inspecting and dealing with returns and warranty claims. Most of the other stuff I had covered in one way shape or form but the time to deal with returns or warranty items is new information.

None of these policies are exclusive to DIYCable. This is pretty much the same policy sheet that one of my major competitors uses. I've modified some of the policy to more clearly outline responsibilities of users but most of the details are exactly the same.

I have no desire to punish people nor give my customers grief but there is some responsibility on the part of the user to troubleshoot problems. If you are unwilling to troubleshoot a problem, and you return a product that is in working condition to me, I have no choice but to charge you for the cost of reconditioning the product. If it is something that I am forced to sell as B-stock, then I have no choice but to charge you the difference in cost from new to the b-stock pricing.

In your case Joe, I'm going to return the full price you paid for the product. I'm not going to pay your shipping cost since there was nothing wrong with the product you returned. Since this product has to now be sold as a B-stock product, I'm extending at least the courtesy of giving your full purchase price back as I promised over the phone.

If you want to further argue about it, do so via email. If you still have a dispute after that you can pursue it via PayPal and they will moderate the dispute. I try to be VERY reasonable when dealing with problems with customers but it is a two-way street.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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Bravo, Kevin Haskins! You have handled this issue with dignity and as well as can be expected under the circumstances.

grateful, I hope you are satisfied with the result also. If not, perhaps you should reflect on how you pursued this whole thing. Both sides have a part to play when something goes wrong, and I think it might be useful for you to do a "post mortem" on the way it was handled.

Good luck to you both.
 
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Honestly, those drivers did not perform as sold. My initial intent was to buy one Maelstrom. Since those had been out of stock, I had asked Kevin about the Shiva's. That's when he said they would play down to 20 hz as well as the Maelstrom in a sealed box.

That just did not happen.

After reflecting, the only thing I have learned is that buying items site unseen/unheard from small companies over the internet is just not worth it, especially when there are other purchases that tie into the products one is purchasing. For example, if this was a complete subwoofer with amp and box, this would be a completely different situation and the arguments on either side would be easier to define.

Since these drivers are combined with a box I built and an amp I bought from another company, there is no way of proving or disproving what went wrong.

No matter what I say to Kevin, he simply does not believe that he did anything wrong. Yet, based on his comments on the Shiva's, I purchased them with blind faith and they do not live up to his comments.

Maybe he misunderstood what I was asking him, maybe I misunderstood his repsonse. Regardless, I have lost $60 on a new amp I had to sell (which by the way has been sold to an individual that has had no complaints on its performance), another $70 on the box I built, $20+ dollars on a microphone cable that I modded to remove the pro audio amp hum, $80 in shipping charges back Exodus, and hours upon hours of time.

That's $230+ spent on items that I will never get to use.

Otto - Are you really tring to convince me that my handling of this situation was the whole problem?
 
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