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You can move it around to set the bottom and the top frequency separately from changing linear to log.

FR isn't that bad other than a wide hole between 100 and 150Hz. Are the mains cut off or running concurrently and what is the xover set to? Are you running both the xover in the processor and the sub or just one? (Should be just one)

Also, FR appears to have some smoothing turned on. I would turn that off.

For now, just concentrate FR and waterfalls from say 20-300Hz.


Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #42
You can move it around to set the bottom and the top frequency separately from changing linear to log.

FR isn't that bad other than a wide hole between 100 and 150Hz. Are the mains cut off or running concurrently and what is the xover set to? Are you running both the xover in the processor and the sub or just one? (Should be just one)

Also, FR appears to have some smoothing turned on. I would turn that off.

For now, just concentrate FR and waterfalls from say 20-300Hz.


Bryan
The mains are set to small, xo at 80hz, sub xo is fully open.

The smoothing can either be the mcaac on my pioneer amp, which to my untrained ears sounds better on than off, but it could be a mental thing, or I do have the parametric equaliser on the svs sub tuned to tame a large peak around 30hz? Or do you mean on rew there is smoothing to be turned off?

I have been trying to improve the sound from my bipole rears, finding the best position for them and the best seating position all round, so after trial and error the sound from the bipoles sound much better when I am seated closer to them, this means instead of 5 feet from the rear wall I am now 2 feet from it, I have measured the subs response in this position and I have it looking ok, is this an ok response and is 2 feet too close? I have tried the dipoles in various positions but this gives the best rear soundstage strangely enough, especially when something travels from left to right you really get a wide soundstage and clearly hear the movement from 1 side of the room to the other.

(This is mainly for sub response and this is with mcaac eq off, mains and sub xo on amp 80hz)

finished.jpg

Thanks again Bryan

Regards
Marty
 

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2 feet would normally be too close. You're sitting in a lot of bass buildup and severely limiting your surround experience.

Just remember than any EQ done at one seating position would need to be redone at any new position. Things will change drastically.

I was referring to smoothing in REW.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #44
2 feet would normally be too close. You're sitting in a lot of bass buildup and severely limiting your surround experience.

Just remember than any EQ done at one seating position would need to be redone at any new position. Things will change drastically.

I was referring to smoothing in REW.

Bryan
I was always told to use 1/3 octave smoothing.

What is an ideal minimum distance to be from a rear wall? Are the results showing an increase in bass by moving closer?

The problem like I said was I seem to loose the details in the rear soundstage further out into the room, is there a reason for that?

Thanks
Marty
 

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1/3 octave obscures detail. I would recommend turning it off for this exercise.

Ideal seating distance is a function of room length.

I can't say what's happening when you move without having both measurements done with no smoothing and no EQ applied

If you're losing detail by moving to farther away from the wall, the surrounds are not likely in the right place - or you're expecting to hear too much from them.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #46
1/3 octave obscures detail. I would recommend turning it off for this exercise.

Ideal seating distance is a function of room length.

I can't say what's happening when you move without having both measurements done with no smoothing and no EQ applied

If you're losing detail by moving to farther away from the wall, the surrounds are not likely in the right place - or you're expecting to hear too much from them.

Bryan
My room length is 18 feet?

In regards to the surrounds I sat in the 5 feet from rear wall position and moved the speakers around on ladders testing material, the rear wall about 1 and a half feet from the corners sounded best, then I was trying seating position and i found that closer to them there is details I can hear which I cannot from the 5 feet position. The main thing I noticed is on the thx scene on indy 4 bluray, when the flowers start fluttering around the rear speakers the finally shift across the rear soundstage from left to right, when I sit in the 5 feet forward position you cant really tell what direction the fluttering goes?


This is the results without amps eq and without smoothing, the only thing that was applied was I adjusted the phase to raise a large dip around 50-60hz and the svs subs parametric equaliser to iron out a large peak around 35hz.

2 feet from wall
2 feet from wall.jpg

5 feet from wall
5 feet from wall.jpg

Thanks
Marty
 

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Looks to me like 5' away is much smoother response without the null and peak.

As for the surround details, some of that is purely a function of excessive decay time and the bottom end not being tight that's masking the details. Try an experiment and move the surrounds on ladders within a couple feet of you when you're 5' from the wall and see what you think. You can also try 5' with them at the rear wall and just turn off the sub to avoid the boom and excessive ringing in the bass - at least from 80hz down.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Looks to me like 5' away is much smoother response without the null and peak.

As for the surround details, some of that is purely a function of excessive decay time and the bottom end not being tight that's masking the details. Try an experiment and move the surrounds on ladders within a couple feet of you when you're 5' from the wall and see what you think. You can also try 5' with them at the rear wall and just turn off the sub to avoid the boom and excessive ringing in the bass - at least from 80hz down.

Bryan
Thanks Bryan I shall try that tomorrow as it is bed time over here now!

Are you able to suggest an ideal distance from rear wall to seating position in a room 18ft 6inch in length?
 

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In theory, you'd want to be somewhere between 6' and 7' from rear wall to seated ear position. That's theoretical but it usually falls somewhere in that range.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #50
In theory, you'd want to be somewhere between 6' and 7' from rear wall to seated ear position. That's theoretical but it usually falls somewhere in that range.

Bryan
Thanks Bryan :T

The only problem with that is it puts me too close to the 16:9 pj screen, this is 9 feet wide by just over 5 feet high, I was informed by the installer that ideally you need to sit no closer than around 3 times the height of the screen distance away, this means that 3 feet is really all I should have from me to the rear wall, but I just about got away with 5 feet forwards, my wife wasn't too keen on the couch being there as it made the room feel a lot smaller and it was in between the 2 doors so you have to squeeze around it.

So I guess I should get it back to 5 feet? Although it is smoother than the 2 feet from rear wall response, would you class that as a very good response or is there still a lot of work to be done?

Thanks again Bryan

I am now gonna make my wife happy and tell her to get off the couch so I can do some more mad scientist stuff :bigsmile:
 

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Yeah - that can be a problem getting a screen before you establish seating position so the screen is driving seating instead of the other way around.

5' is better than 2-3' certainly and the response shows it. I've seen a lot worse response, trust me. Still needs some work but it's a better starting point.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #52
I will remember that next time!

I just realised that I was actually sitting 4 feet not 5 feet from the rear wall! Again looking at 5 feet feels too close to the screen and is in the middle of the doors so I am even further back than I thought!!

When you say that response needs work I take it you mean with room treatment as I have done all I can with placement?

Thanks
Marty
 

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You could still potentially play with speaker and sub locations to see if anything else can be done. Treatment can add additional help but I'd like to get you as good as possible before hand so we can best identify what is causing the remaining problems.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
You could still potentially play with speaker and sub locations to see if anything else can be done. Treatment can add additional help but I'd like to get you as good as possible before hand so we can best identify what is causing the remaining problems.
Thanks again Bryan, appreciate it. I have tried every possible location for sub, the only extent I haven't gone to is moving the sub an inch at a time and measuring but that would take a very long time.

I tried the bipoles on ladders 2 feet behind me in the 5 feet foward (sorry 4 feet!) position and I think you were right because they dont sound much different now. I also tried listening to different film clips and moving them about. I tried them on the side wall, 1 tweeter facing towards me the other firing behind, I am not sure how the sound is meant to be heard from a bipole but they sound quite a bit different. I have been informed that they work on back or side walls. I watched the matrix where neo gets shot at by the agent and found on the side wall sounded great but very directional but on the rear wall it was less directional but seemed to be a bit less fluent when the first bullet whizzes down the left hand side of the room?
 

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Well, bipoles by nature would be hung with you sitting directly inside of them so you're in the null and they're not localizable. Back wall, I usually recommend monopoles.

The clarity is better now since you're away from where all the bass is building up and masking things back closer to the wall.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Well, bipoles by nature would be hung with you sitting directly inside of them so you're in the null and they're not localizable. Back wall, I usually recommend monopoles.

The clarity is better now since you're away from where all the bass is building up and masking things back closer to the wall.

Bryan
That is strange about the bipoles, I always sat in the null as I originally thought they were dipoles and had them on the side wall. Someone from cedia said that they are 2 close to the rear wall (2 feet) and would be better placed on the rear wall 1/3 the width of the wall apart. When I moved them there the sound was poor! We were still sitting in the nulls but was really disappointed with the rear soundstage, I could never hear much going at all, like I never even had any rear speakers. Then I was told by the store I bought them from that they are bipoles not dipoles and you are meant to have 1 of the tweeters firing at you and the other firing away from you and reflecting, he then said that they are best placed on the rear wall about 8 feet apart (the rear wall is 13 feet wide) I did this and this is when the rear soundstage really opened up and the width of sound was incredible. Now trying them on the side wall with 1 tweeter firing at us, they are kind of in a monopole placement position in a standard 5.1 layout. I think they sound even better there but not sure, the matrix scene where neo is shot at the bullet seems to have a smoother transition from front left speaker and travels all the way along the side wall to the rear, I would assume that that is exactly how it is supposed to be heard?

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Marty
 

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Discussion Starter #57
If you're losing detail by moving to farther away from the wall, the surrounds are not likely in the right place - or you're expecting to hear too much from them.

Bryan
I am curious to know what are we actually supposed to be hearing from surrounds, I can hear when loud things happen like things flying around or bullets whizzing past but for 95% of a film I cant hear anything, if you walk up to a surround speaker there is always sounds coming through them for the whole film, surely if there is sound details coming from them you are supposed to hear them otherwise why bother putting any info on rear channels other than fly pasts?

Well, bipoles by nature would be hung with you sitting directly inside of them so you're in the null and they're not localizable. Back wall, I usually recommend monopoles.

The clarity is better now since you're away from where all the bass is building up and masking things back closer to the wall.

Bryan
http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/66471-guide-bipolar-dipolar-direct-radiating-monopole-surround-speakers.html
This is why I placed my speakers where they are now and for the major sound effects they sound best in the rear wall position in my room, the side wall was too localised. Notice that for bipoles you are not in the null.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/66471-guide-bipolar-dipolar-direct-radiating-monopole-surround-speakers.html

Kind Regards
Marty
 

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Youre hearing exactly what you should from the surrounds, only occasional sound effects. Some movies and sources are better at utilizing the surrounds than others. So much so that movie reviews often mention how active the surrounds were throughout the movie...
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Youre hearing exactly what you should from the surrounds, only occasional sound effects. Some movies and sources are better at utilizing the surrounds than others. So much so that movie reviews often mention how active the surrounds were throughout the movie...
What is the point of the sound effects coming from the surrounds then? I am reffering to the jungle noises or the people mumbling or rain pouring etc. etc.

I would have thought they mixed those sounds there to make you feel like you are in the movie?
 

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For exactly what it says the are - surround effects. Mostly, it just adds a sense of envelopment and being IN the movie instead of outside of it. There are some effects that should be heard loud and clear but many are just ambient type of things.

Bryan
 
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