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Discussion Starter #61
For exactly what it says the are - surround effects. Mostly, it just adds a sense of envelopment and being IN the movie instead of outside of it. There are some effects that should be heard loud and clear but many are just ambient type of things.

Bryan
I am not sure I am even hearing the ambience, I suppose I could try unplugging front speakers and listen to what I am actually hearing but I watched harry potter & the P.O.A. and didn't notice any rear ambience, I know you are not supposed to be distracted but since I am going all out to try and perfect the sound as best as I can I was actually listening to hear what was going on and there was nothing. If I turned my head sideways I can suddenly hear the sound but when I stare straight at the screen nadda! Unless it is a flyover sound effect.

Kind Regards
Marty
 

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Try the opposite and play a scene. Then replay with the rears disconnected.

Bryan
 

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I am not sure I am even hearing the ambience, I suppose I could try unplugging front speakers and listen to what I am actually hearing but I watched harry potter & the P.O.A. and didn't notice any rear ambience, I know you are not supposed to be distracted but since I am going all out to try and perfect the sound as best as I can I was actually listening to hear what was going on and there was nothing. If I turned my head sideways I can suddenly hear the sound but when I stare straight at the screen nadda! Unless it is a flyover sound effect.

Kind Regards
Marty
Try processing with all channel stereo via your receiver, that will send the entire soundtrack to all speakers. If you are noticing a loss of rear performance while processing in a surround mode (like truehd dtsmaster dolby digi ect) then its the mastering of your source and not your setup. Speaker level calibration software within your receiver will send white noise to each channel also.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
Try processing with all channel stereo via your receiver, that will send the entire soundtrack to all speakers. If you are noticing a loss of rear performance while processing in a surround mode (like truehd dtsmaster dolby digi ect) then its the mastering of your source and not your setup. Speaker level calibration software within your receiver will send white noise to each channel also.
My speakers are all calibrated to 75db from my listening position, I tried all channel stereo and sounds good all round so it is probably the source as you said.

I tried unplugging all speakers and sub except the surrounds in the flying tank scene in the A-Team, there were surrounds effects galore that I could clearly hear every detail of, then I tried all 5 speakers on and I was unable to hear most of the effects that I heard from surrounds alone?

I then tried what Bryan suggested and just turn the 3 fronts on and I could hardly tell any difference between the surrounds being on or off.

I have only tried this with the A-Team bluray and nothing else so far but what is going on?

Regards
Marty
 

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C'mon guys "Stanley Tools" developed the Utility Knife/razor knife/retractable knife ect. we've always called them utility knives here in Maine. But , the "Skill Saw" that was a tough thing for me to start calling a circular saw/power saw. But Skill Tools did first come out with a circular saw so naturally one would call this a skill saw. Right?

In any case, Bryan I hate to distract you from the great job you are doing with Marty1 (I have some idea now) and it is probably bad form too. I am just curious (well more than curious). I am reading Stereophile January 2011 and a couple of the columnists have gone souh to visit the Univ of the South in Tenn. where they have gone to examine, critically evaluate a "Million Dollar Stereo System". The entrance to the lisening room even has a sound lock vestibule entrance where like an air lock you enter the vestibule, close the door behind you and then open the door to the listening area. They describe some pretty exotic sheetrocking practices and shelving alignments and other very sophisticated room considerations. They are using a single pair of Wilson's newer Grand Slam speakers..., I forgot the name of this model but they are huge Wilson Audio speakers.
But when I look around what I see for noise Tx are 3' x 6' panel directly behind the speaker and a 2'x2' on the ceiling which which lies beginning just off mid-line of the Wilson's and the area toward center-line of the room and just forward of the speakers. The shelving lining both L/R walls are angled so that any sound reflection trapped by the shelving and dissipates. I don't know about the back wall there were no pic's I guess this is where the special sheet-rock was used. But after reading what you suggest and sounds perfect to me. I just wonder how the library gets by with so little damping around the speakers themselves.

Gregr
 

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IMO, the room is undertreated. There have been a lot of things done to maximize the 'starting point' which is always a good thing.

How they get by with it is that most people don't know any better quite honestly.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
My speakers are all calibrated to 75db from my listening position, I tried all channel stereo and sounds good all round so it is probably the source as you said.

I tried unplugging all speakers and sub except the surrounds in the flying tank scene in the A-Team, there were surrounds effects galore that I could clearly hear every detail of, then I tried all 5 speakers on and I was unable to hear most of the effects that I heard from surrounds alone?

I then tried what Bryan suggested and just turn the 3 fronts on and I could hardly tell any difference between the surrounds being on or off.

I have only tried this with the A-Team bluray and nothing else so far but what is going on?
Anyone got any suggestions at all?
 

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I would try that experiment with a different movie - one that has more ambient effects like being in a jungle, water dripping in a cave, etc. If the level is just too low for your preference, then there's nothing wrong with adjusting it up a bit to suit your taste.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #70
I would try that experiment with a different movie - one that has more ambient effects like being in a jungle, water dripping in a cave, etc. If the level is just too low for your preference, then there's nothing wrong with adjusting it up a bit to suit your taste.

Bryan
I am looking at the placement again, with the left surround bipole, the tweeter firing towards me is firing at the back of my head, I wonder if that is affecting the sound?

When I experimented with placement I used material with loud surround effects to decide the final position, I found that on the side wall when the helicopter at the start of cliffhanger flies from the left surround and goes around the room, just before the picture first comes on, I could tell exactly where the leftspeaker was. This is why I chose rear placement instead but should I have tried watching a whole film with them on the sides before giving up?

Maybe the ambient sounds would have sounded better from that position?

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Marty
 

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Again, I can't say. It's a lot of personal preference and what YOU want from the surrounds. It's certainly possible that you might prefer the other location on other movies.
 

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Discussion Starter #72 (Edited)
Again, I can't say. It's a lot of personal preference and what YOU want from the surrounds. It's certainly possible that you might prefer the other location on other movies.
I will give it a try in the side position and leave them there whilst watching a few films, that might give me more confidence in my decision, then I can focus my attention back to your room treatment suggestions.

Got a bit sidetracked :R Thanks for your help again Bryan, much appreciated :T
 

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Bryan,

Sounds like Marty1 has a list of do's and will be busy for a bit. I just have a quick follow-up on the Stereophile trip to the Univ of the South in Tennessee.

After reading your response, I again looked over the article and there were a few things that now do stand out as different. The article was spread out over a dozen pages or so with a total of 5-7 leaves (verso and/or recto) total dialog. The article I will admit was about the trip but the critique was more about the trip, buying LP's at a NJ Market, eval of the New Ford Edge sound system and lots of other critical stuff.

The actual written dialog about the Univ's $1m sound room consisted of one of two columns on one leaf. The article mentioned a few building materials and construction considerations. included were names of the materials and Architects/Engineers but no "Sound Engineer" specifically. And there was no real critique as you would expect for such a grand effort. There were some superlatives and even a little emotional gushing about the Wilson Alexandria's but fell way short of a total package critique. Not like Stereophile to miss an opp to write on and on about all of the details. Chris Huston was credited with the Acoustical Engineering in one line no longer than line I just gave you.

Bryan, all of that sounds odd but here is a question that leads to my real question. Can you "Over-dampen a room"? And the real question is: my speakers sound great (matched pair of B&W DM303's especially) if I am standing 3 ft away from one I cannot tell you which speaker is actually playing what I hear (to a very high degree). If I use the 5.1 I can point out the Mission sound track. Will damping improve my speaker invisibility.
if I over-damp will my speakers become obvious or if they are well matched will they disappear even further. I have a sense that all of the speakers flaws will add or multiply. Sorry I didn't mean to go on for so long, but I believe you are the man to answer this one.

Thanks

Greg
 

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Honestly, for the sake of your question and the sake of his thread, it would be better if we did this in your own thread.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #77
Broadband bass absorption floor to ceiling in the 2 front corners. I'd also do some in the shorter left rear corner.

I would add at least 2-3 2" 2'x4' absorption panels on the left wall to bring better left to right symmetry by matching better with the curtains on the other side.

Ideally, the front wall would also be 100% dead to help with boundary interactions and to prevent reflections from the surround channels contaminating the front soundstage.

Bryan
Ok I am now thinking about making a stud wall for the front wall, mainly due to hearing my neighbours during quiet scenes in films, I have read how to do this and what I was wondering was would making the standard stud wall create the absorbtion I need?

I would loose about 6 inches of the room with the stud wall so I would prefer to avoid adding absorbant panels all around the front wall afterwards.

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To provide isolation, you need studs, insulation, and drywall. That's not going to give you any absorption for reflections from the surrounds or help with boundary issues.

Why 6"?

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #79
To provide isolation, you need studs, insulation, and drywall. That's not going to give you any absorption for reflections from the surrounds or help with boundary issues.

Why 6"?

Bryan
That was the final depth of a studwall away from existing wall drawing I saw, It was thick rockwooll against existing wall, then a 4 inch gap, then 2 layers of accoustic plasterboard with a layer of rockwool sandwiched inbetween them.

So I am guessing I would need to add another layer of rockwool on top of the plasterboard and just cover with a layer of fabric then?

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Marty
 

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You can cut the spacing a little. The rockwool between drywall layers isn't going to do much at all. Green Glue would be better by a long shot.

Assuming Green Glue.

Wall
1/2" space
2x4 stud(3.5")
2 layers 1/2" drywall

Total space - 5". That leaves you only using 6" total with 1" mineral wool inside the room or 7" total with 2" inside the room.

Bryan
 
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