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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
As Hannibal of the A-Team likes to say: "I love it when a plan comes together!" Well, I've got half of it right 'cuz I've finally decided to pull the trigger on the matching center for my Revel Salons, the Revel Voice (original, not the "2"). It's been a dream 10 years in the making, but the price has come down enough it's hard to resist. I'll be selling the B&W L/C/R to make room in the family - just can't get myself to eat the depreciation on the Salons. They've also spoiled me so much, that anything less results in ongoing tinkering and continual soul searching for better sound. I am extremely happy with them and feel they've enabled me to step off the upgrade merry-go-round. Good thing, too! I can't afford a comparable purchase these days, new or used. Here's a few pics (The Need for the Sound Outweighs the Need of the Looks):



revel4.jpg revel2.jpg



revel1.jpg revel3.jpg



When a plan comes together, it usually means the planning has stopped. Not so in my case! Transferring these behemoths to HT use will present a whole new array of challenges, not the least of which is center channel placement. This 95lb beastie is 12.5Hx29.5Wx12.75D, and does not come with the stand. Even if it did, the speaker would still sit only about 2ft off the floor. The mains tweeters are about 4ft off the floor. Now I've heard that the best setup keeps the two within about a foot of each other vertically, but I just don't see how that's going to happen in this case. Mounting an approximate 100lb anything directly on a wall is one thing, but placing that same 100lbs out from the wall on a shelf-type apparatus is going to create a fulcrum/lever system that applies forces that will tend to bring the whole thing crashing down.



So this thread is about my options for placing the new center in a decent location. Does Lou once again want advice but then do things his own way anyhow? I do have some loose rope to play with, but am planning (there's that word again!) to move soon so can't disrupt the house. EXCEPT... I have the option of moving from a 12x10 to a 14x10(?) room. Hardly enough of a space gain to warrant all the work for a temporary move, but that will come into play later as mounting options are considered. Gotta go right now, but will post some of those options soon.
 

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Where, Oh Where Does My New CC Go?

Hey Louie! She looks beautiful.
How much height do you need? Maybe you just need build a subfloor, or riser of x by x by x dimensions. Wide/long enough to be stable, and tall enough to boost it up. I'm imagining a simple rectangular box with appt bracing(and polyfil?) Elegant? Not so much, but my brain is still in standby, lol. 14x10 room? Probably not worth the extra trouble for the duration you'll be there.
Beautiful speaker.


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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks, Will! Needed height will vary depending on which mounting option I wind up with. Kind of like answering a question with a question, but the height requirement is dependant on what will wind up under the display. On one hand I could put everything on an equipment rack like this one (it needs to be sturdy to hold 100lbs on top shelf!!):

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Or OTOH, I could get a pair of these for just the CC under the screen (but how easy would that be to knock over?):

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Either way is pricey enough, and I'd also need to mount the TV on the wall instead of to my current rack/stand. But because there's a window that prevents the bracket from being centered, it'll need to be a full motion one that has enough range to swing the TV back to center (HINT: The window is behind the lone wolf). Just when you think you're saving $$ (sigh). This hobby is like so many others where you have to spend money to save money (lol) :blink: :spend:

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So here's the dilemma. If I go with DIY or tripod stands, I'll need to move the equipment to it's own rack; probably in a closet toward the back of the room. I just don't like the idea of giving up what little floor space there is. When my wife watches with me, I lay on the floor in front of the LP. That puts my feet flush up against the amp's faceplate! No room for a speaker stand and an equipment rack, too! Why the dilemma? Well, WAF has it that all the stuff that comes out of the closet either goes back in or gets thrown out :eek: Looks like I need to reexamine my packrat priorities! Also, I think it's time to get those albums out of there and open the space up. That might even make enough room for a second seat! I know the extra width in the other room would work out just fine for that. Not saying there's anything any of you can do to help, just filling you in on the plan's progress as it unfolds!
 

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Wow Lou, thats quite the centre channel!

Honestly having the speaker only 2ft off the floor would be better than having it above the display. Raising the display to high would also be hard for you to watch if your laying on the floor. Moving the gear off to the side would free up the space below the display and then you could still just use the current TV stand and just have the centre in front of the stand.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Hi Tony, and thanks for taking me seriously!

Good point about display height. Yes I lay on the floor now, but that's just wrong on so many HT levels! Removing the album crates would free up 2-3 feet, making room for dual seats. Or instead of upgrading to dual seats (there's no room for three), I thought maybe a small sofa or loveseat would allow for a single sweet spot during solitary viewing. Anyone have an opinion on how high/low is too high/low for the display? I think you're supposed to mount it so the screen's center is at eye level (ideally).

More questions:
  • How do you better anchor sound to the display?
  • Is it just a matter of placing the speakers closer to it?
  • But then doesn't that compromise sound quality due to reflections off the display?

I'm thinking that fixing the display location first will then help determine how high my center channel stand needs to be. Is that the normal sequence?

Your idea of moving gear to the side sparked an idea of my own. Getting rid of all the extra furnishings would free up more space for proper mains positioning - much harder to get right in that small space than it was when they were out in the open - and subwoofer location. The sub was basically stuffed in the corner for lack of room. Removing the albums and furniture would yield a lot more flexibility. I'm not complaining about the quality of my bass right now, but there is room for improvement.

Oh yeah, almost forgot... here's a more recent pic of the room (still need to mentally substitute a PSA XV15 sub for the REL and Salons for the CM9s - hah! good luck with that one, I'll post up-to-date-pics soon).
307.jpg
 

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The height of the display currently is just about perfect in my opinion. Generally you dont want to look up at a display as that puts strain on your eyes and neck. My screen in my theater is about 3ft off the floor so when seated I look at about the bottom 1/3 of the screen straight on


I find that works well.
 

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I take you seriously and i feel your problem.

I read on occasion that the bottom of the screen should not be more than 40" off the floor. That will change depending on your chair and if you recline do you look up a bit.

I think mounting the tv to the wall beside the window will work with your idea of a flexible articulating arm. Put the Salon on your equipment rack in a manner similar to the B&W and see if that works.
It will not compromise the sound really any more than what you have now.

Remember you are moving at some point, so that gives you a new canvas and maybe a room that will support the biggies you have now along with the large subwoofer. Go slow and plan well. I think the mains you are bringing in from the living room are quite large and will cause problems of their own. It might be that trying to pull your mains off the side walls, might short change the space between them for a center channel. I dunno, that is a lot of stuff for the green room. :dontknow:
 

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Where, Oh Where Does My New CC Go?

Hey ol buddy!
Since there's not a right way Pe se, I'll share my thoughts and opinions as only being that, for setting up to be effective at music and movies. Compromise naturally. To your questions ...
Anchoring sound to the screen is a balance of getting the speakers far enough to the sides to create a nice wide presentation while also finding the right distance/toe in for stereo listening. The center and mains should be able to be spread out but not so far as to create audible holes in the stage. I do not subscribe to the equilateral triangle thing. I think speakers need to be moved around to find their best home. Wayne's experiments are proof of this. I also don't like the mains under the screen as I find that hard pans to the sides don't translate properly. My screen was set so tweeter height is at center screen height. Ironically it's close to eye level, which I also don't think is a golden rule. Just keep it comfortable and not so high as to cramp your neck. The top of my center channel is about one inch under the screen and the baffle is angled back so as to point it at my ears. About one foot is the distance between my LCR tweeters. Haven't noticed any disparities due to this. Next is surrounds...lol! Different thread. Since we're sharing, here ya go. This was shot from the NOT sunken part of my LR, and so the angle will not represent seated view. Sorry so windy...

That's a 58" tv for reference.

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Very good advice Willis. Also, I love the front end of your room, it looks so inviting. I think that plants always do make things sound better.

I think I sounded a bit negative in my post above and I apologize for that. I believe that Lou has done a great job with what he has. He can really add some nice space if he removed the record racks and he and his lovely wife can enjoy movies together in a seated position. I absolutely agree with his thoughts on keeping the Revels, they sound positively amazing and hold a large place in Lou's heart.
I think once the other stuff is removed, he can roll the Revels in the room and live happily ever after.

The tweeters on the Revels sit rather high at just under 50" or so the center speaker will have to sit kind of high as well, maybe 30" or more. Using a articulated mount that not only can hold the display out a bit from the front wall and maybe even get one that allows for some tilt, would be ideal. I think Mr. Lumin will have goose bumps for days once he gets the speaks changed out and set up. I am getting goose bumps now :yes:
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Put the Salon on your equipment rack in a manner similar to the B&W and see if that works. It will not compromise the sound really any more than what you have now.
All this wouldn't be so much of a problem if I could just swap out center channels, but the top shelf currently supports only 60lbs. Being made of glass, I've been pushing my luck with the B&W. No way the 95lb Revel will claim that perch! The plan is to reuse this stand in the normal living room.

The height of the display currently is just about perfect in my opinion. Generally you dont want to look up at a display as that puts strain on your eyes and neck. My screen in my theater is about 3ft off the floor so when seated I look at about the bottom 1/3 of the screen straight on. I find that works well.
My screen was set so tweeter height is at center screen height. Ironically it's close to eye level, which I also don't think is a golden rule. Just keep it comfortable and not so high as to cramp your neck. The top of my center channel is about one inch under the screen and the baffle is angled back so as to point it at my ears. ...That's a 58" tv for reference.
The tweeters on the Revels sit rather high at just under 50" or so the center speaker will have to sit kind of high as well, maybe 30" or more.
So it looks like around eye-level it is! :T
Let's see what happens working backwards... At roughly 33in tall, half my display height would be 16.75in. Dropping about 2in from there and accounting for the 12.5in height of the Revel Voice puts me at 31in from line-of-sight to the top of the Revel's stand. For a seated height (floor to ear level) of approximately 45in, that yields an ideal stand height of 14in (for viewing purposes). But because the shortest tripod model shown above is 21in tall, I'd need to raise the TV 7in to clear the top of the Voice. Those conditions would impose an 11deg viewing angle for a viewing distance of 10ft (if my math is right). Anyone know what the acceptable viewing angles are for a plasma set? Moving closely across the display at extreme viewing angles tells me it's not going to be an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I think I sounded a bit negative in my post above and I apologize for that.
Not at all, Jack! It is what it is, and I think you're just exercising incredible restraint at not busting out laughing. Shoehorning the Salons into that space sounds silly at best, but you really have to hear for yourself what they can do with some attention to setup, room treatment, and room correction. They'll still throw an expansive stage, just not far to the outside. Imaging is a little better, but they don't really pull off the disappearing act I know they're capable of.
Put the Salon on your equipment rack in a manner similar to the B&W and see if that works. It will not compromise the sound really any more than what you have now.
Many of us have the center on a shelf/rack under a display. Wouldn't it be great if our AVRs had a feature to "lift" the center's sound to midscreen?! Anyway, I don't fully understand why this type of mount is a compromise, especially if the speaker cabinet is flush with the shelf's edge.

Remember you are moving at some point, so that gives you a new canvas and maybe a room that will support the biggies you have now along with the large subwoofer. Go slow and plan well. I think the mains you are bringing in from the living room are quite large and will cause problems of their own. It might be that trying to pull your mains off the side walls, might short change the space between them for a center channel. I dunno, that is a lot of stuff for the green room.
I absolutely agree with his thoughts on keeping the Revels, they sound positively amazing and hold a large place in Lou's heart.
I think once the other stuff is removed, he can roll the Revels in the room and live happily ever after.
You hit it the nail on the head, Jack! I eagerly await the day I can break ground on a proper home cinema, and give my speakers the breathing room they need to perform their best.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Wall Mount Woes!!
My goodness, mercy me. Where did these all come from? I originally thought this one was a good pick until I saw ads over at Monoprice. Doe anyone know or care to hazard a guess why mounts with the same features are so much different in price? I did notice the Rocketfish model comes with a lifetime warranty. Are you also paying for the brand name? And as far as mounting goes, do you think these require double studs?

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The Rocketfish one would be much more sturdy when it pulled out. I have one at home for a smaller 32" LCD that looks identical to the lower monoprice one and it is really wobbly when its pulled out from the wall.
 
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Very good advice Willis. Also, I love the front end of your room, it looks so inviting. I think that plants always do make things sound better.



:

Sorry Jack. I forgot to thank you for the nice words. I do find it comfortable. Maybe too much sometimes, lol.
 

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When I checked this thread I first thought it was about Close Caption...from youtube videos, etc. ...subtitles.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
...and don't call me Shirley!
--Airplane

The center is on it's way from England, and should be here by Thursday! I've been scrambling to prepare the room but so far have only been able to clear the 2-ch equipment rack for re-use in the HT. Talk about stacked inventory! The system takes up a lot more room when packed in boxes. The rack will be a welcome addition to the HT with it's improved ventilation and sturdy support. If I can get a hold of the custom stand from Harman, I plan to locate my existing equipment rack in the room's open closet with Muffin fans for air circulation. But if the custom stand is unavailable, I've got two choices:
  1. Use a single-wide rack under display for the CC, with the existing equipment rack in closet
  2. Use a double-wide rack under the display for the CC and equipment (Left=$1000; Right=$150; Both support >100lbs/shelf)

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I really like the one in the lower right but that is just my taste. Looks like the bottom two would be sturdy enough to hold your goodies as there is mid shelf support. Considering your CC weighs a good bit.
Are you gonna use the Emo amp or your monoblocks and will they sit on the floor as opposed to the rack ?? Gosh so many thoughts here, I love the open design, good for lots of air flow.

You've got this Lumen !!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yeah, I like the one on the lower right as well, especially considering the price is almost 10% of the other! The silver posts match the speaker end panels, so should look quite handsome, but I may have them powder coated if they cast too many light reflections. I actually pulled the trigger on that one yesterday, because I found out Harman discontinued the custom stands. Using this large dual-bay model will let me reconstruct the system with a minimum of fuss once it's removed from the old rack; just put everything back on the same shelf it was before! Sounds like a painful wasted effort, but has to be done to properly support the equipment.

And yes, Jack, I'd love to run the monoblocks again when I have the room. It will be interesting to see which biases come into play after hooking them up. Do all amps really sound the same? :devil:

It's my opinion that the Salons are power hungry, and sound their best at higher volumes. Some speakers don't seem to open up and come alive until they've reached a certain volume. I've not heard that about the Salons, so performance as a function of playback level in my case might be attributable to room acoustics. I believe clarity suffers in cases where either the room is over damped or has severe modal resonances of high amplitude and long decay time. Excessively long reverberation in the warmth region causes muddy sound that masks detail, as explained in the following snippet from Your Room: The Final Link

"...at lower frequencies, the ear/brain is less sensitive to timing and directionality. So it is not actively irritated by lower frequency reflections and excess reverb. Nevertheless, this delayed lower frequency information, ricocheting around your room, is a sea of lingering acoustic mud that does make it much more difficult for you to hear succeeding new musical information coming out of your speakers. As a result of this mud factor, your system will sound muddy and untransparent, throughout the frequency range, but you won't be able to figure out why, because you don't really hear anything wrong with your listening room's acoustics. ... When your room has this mud factor, you may find yourself constantly turning the volume level up, hoping in vain to hear the music more clearly. But of course, as you turn up the volume level of musical information from the speakers, the sea of mud also rises, so you gain nothing. Finally you run into power amp clipping and emotional frustration. ASC Tube Traps soak up this sea of mud."

So I think I can fix the mud factor by adding more tube traps in a controlled fashion. To be truly effective, modal resonances need to be measured and analyzed to determine problem frequencies and locations. Then appropriately sized traps can be placed in key locations other than just the corners. An alternate method is to carry the trap around the room while bass-heavy material plays, and plop it down in the spot where it starts to vibrate. Sort of like the sub-crawl, only with tubes! But as many others have discovered, it takes a lot of traps - big and small - to properly tame resonances. Undaunted by my lack of space, I am committed to experimenting with the best locations I can muster.
 
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