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Discussion Starter #21
if the product fails to perform as specified and the service center confirms it, use the warranty agreement and get it repaired or replaced. An AVR is built to connect to other devices, without damaging them.
If they fix yours, allow the salespeople to claim they never heard of such issue. The illusion saves face officially, even if forum readers know better. If they have too many cases they may do a recall anyway.
the problem is unless users report it widely on social media or we need to create sm kind of a thread on reditt for others to join...smone whos followed widely in these audio forums yamaha will keep creating this illusion.
This is what i am appealing.its not about my faulty avr but i am really afraid to go purchase a new one as with a small dataset if there is so much variation i guess a lot many users across the world have it who either use the grounding screw or just live with it.i guess if we are paying for a reliable model from a brand we shouldnt have to adjust period and thats why i am appealing to all readers with yamaha to flag this widely so that this gets noticed.dont be content that u can manage.the thing is after burning a hole thru ur pocket u shuldnt be told to live with it.

And regarding repair they will do that.but if the whole idea was to repair a brand new device them why not go for a refurb.why spend on a new one at all??yamaha categorically says it wont replace and not only that thier attitude and arrogance is sickening.its like the same nokia used to have during its heydays.
 

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Well, I have not seen anyone report their measurement data completely, including input voltage, frequency and most important: measured touch current. Not some stray voltage. In this thread the largest likely root cause of measured variation is the impedance of the different meters and ranges everyone is using. Make the data transparent enough to be repeatable and you may find enough faulty products to move the needle. We all learn something in the process.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Well, I have not seen anyone report their measurement data completely, including input voltage, frequency and most important: measured touch current. Not some stray voltage. In this thread the largest likely root cause of measured variation is the impedance of the different meters and ranges everyone is using. Make the data transparent enough to be repeatable and you may find enough faulty products to move the needle. We all learn something in the process.
rather than measured voltage or anythng wat we need to understand is just one thing.yamaha themselves suggest this voltage shudnt even be there but yet many have it across models and sm dont.that pretty much is indicative of a larger problem which yamaha is either aware of or not.either ways i guess people who can and know test their electric sockets and try finding out this issue.by stating that everythng else rather than yamaha is at fault is like clearing apple even if it has some issue on its phones which it would obviously deny to prevent recalls and the fallout.

what i have seen is that many yamaha avrs and amplifiers have this problem and many have known this but live with it as i said.so yamaha gets the deniability factor.
consider the fact that this company asked me to check for the voltage at their service centre saying that it cud be my home wiring which inhad already checked and cross checked at 3 other homes.and wen it was also reflecting at their service centre they send me a mail stating this is floating ground and thats why the voltage is there.ground it or fix ur home.though wen asked why at their service centre there was a big silence.
 

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If the service technicians accept “chassis voltage” as a problem, and have no better answers than the waffling you describe, we have a systemic issue indeed. I see no way to fix it by forum discussion. A few customers demanding repair or replacement may get them on the road to fix it for good. You know why? Because they need to explain how they confirmed the customer’s claim was valid, to get the national or global head office to pay the warranty cost. Head office may learn there is a product issue or they may learn which of their staff need a competence upgrade. Good luck, I have no more answers.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
If the service technicians accept “chassis voltage” as a problem, and have no better answers than the waffling you describe, we have a systemic issue indeed. I see no way to fix it by forum discussion. A few customers demanding repair or replacement may get them on the road to fix it for good. You know why? Because they need to explain how they confirmed the customer’s claim was valid, to get the national or global head office to pay the warranty cost. Head office may learn there is a product issue or they may learn which of their staff need a competence upgrade. Good luck, I have no more answers.
its the head office indeed that is bungling up and passing self contradictory comments in written mail.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
If the service technicians accept “chassis voltage” as a problem, and have no better answers than the waffling you describe, we have a systemic issue indeed. I see no way to fix it by forum discussion. A few customers demanding repair or replacement may get them on the road to fix it for good. You know why? Because they need to explain how they confirmed the customer’s claim was valid, to get the national or global head office to pay the warranty cost. Head office may learn there is a product issue or they may learn which of their staff need a competence upgrade. Good luck, I have no more answers.
anyways have sent yamaha music india a legal notice.atleast that should make them notice even if it doesnt bring any change in their stand on my issue.atleast i can purchase upcoming models of theirs peacefully
 

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If the service technicians accept “chassis voltage” as a problem, and have no better answers than the waffling you describe, we have a systemic issue indeed. I see no way to fix it by forum discussion. A few customers demanding repair or replacement may get them on the road to fix it for good. You know why? Because they need to explain how they confirmed the customer’s claim was valid, to get the national or global head office to pay the warranty cost. Head office may learn there is a product issue or they may learn which of their staff need a competence upgrade. Good luck, I have no more answers.
[/QUOTE

Even a severe ¨chassis voltage¨ problem is not necessarily indicative of an AV component fault. I note that you are from India, so the first question is about your local mains power distribution configuration. I live in Lima, Peru, where there is a catastrophic ¨chassis voltage¨ problem with just about all major domestic appliances (apart from new double insulated small appliances). We experience minor to severe ¨tickles¨ touching stoves, refrigerators… and have constant failures of new smart TV and PC mainboards and power supplies, HDMI and USB ports, AV components, routers/modems etc., also causing faintly flickering fluorescent lights when supposedly ¨OFF¨, and 20,000 hour LED lamp failures after some few months of use !?!

Why is this: it is really quite simple !!! The Lima mains power distribution uses a 3-phase Delta configuration, without supplying houses with a Neutral nor an Earth. This would be a dangerously illegal practice in more civilized countries!!! The 220 VAC power sockets are connected between 2 floating phase connections, that tend to be around +/- 110 volts thus yielding about 220 volts. But as the 3 phase loadings are not balanced from the street, in fact the phases wander around, eg. sometimes a +140 and a -80, and finally just about all chassis are live to a lesser or greater degree.

The only definitive but costly solution is to install a 3-phase Delta to 2 or 3 phase Star ISOLATION TRANSFORMER with a real earth, thus enabling all internal mains power connections to be via 3 pin sockets with a Neutral 0V, and Active 220V, and a true safe independent 0V Earth. This is expensive! In my case, I use a 2-phase 1000W 220-220V Isolation Transformer and real Earth as a dedicated mains power system for all my beloved AV gear. I would like to protect the whole house, including my oft failing new LED lights, but this would require a serious 3-phase Delta to Star 5000W+ ISOLATION TRANSFORMER that would cost maybe $2000+.

The sadly ¨funny¨ fact is that most electricians and even electrical engineers in Lima do not understand this lamentable situation, that is just a black and white configuration issue. I guess that human nature accepts the Lima supply configuration as ¨normal¨, without question, because clearly it is not something to change today, and the safe solution is beyond the means of most all. Apart from regular domestic appliance failures, there is a high level of electrocutions compared with other countries, that is accepted without comment…

So returning to the initial question, what is the power supply configuration in India ?!?
I hope that this (too long!?!) explanation has at least elucidated some roots of AV equipment failure issues, and even without the full Lima catastrophe, many houses have cabling problems by not providing 3 pin sockets respecting Active and Neutral polarities, with real Earths, such that when interconnecting AV components and network cabled PCs etc. on different power outlets different chassis polarities (even just with capacitive coupling) can cause ¨tickles¨ and even component failure.

Good luck everyone, and surely we all need it to safeguard our components. BTW, I have several Yamaha amps without failure, but the real worry now is that just about all domestic appliances like microwave ovens and TVs using direct switching mode power supplies for computer logic touch controls are now a greater risk… often subject to unrepairable mainboard failures ...
 

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PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE MESSAGE... How much do you know about electricity? Is the power plug you use in India "polarized" so that it can only be inserted into an AC power socket ONE WAY? If the answer to that question is NO, then unplug the power cord, reverse the prongs on the power plug by rotating the power plug 180 degrees, then plug it in again and check the voltage on the chassis. If you still have a voltage on the chassis, you can stop it by making a ground/earth wire that connects the Yamaha receiver chassis (use any screw on the back of the Yamaha, but you need to remove the paint around the screw for good electrical connection. The Yamaha receiver is designed to work on electrical systems with 1 wire providing power (220 VAC or 120 VAC) while the second wire is "neutral" which is not exactly the same thing as "ground" or "earth". If your electricity supply is 120 VAC on BOTH wires (when they combine, you get 220 VAC), that is NOT CORRECT for the Yamaha receiver. Another possible problem is the electrical ground in your home or apartment building. Older buildings often have NO actual ground or earth connection. They may have connected the ground/earth to a water pipe or metal sewer pipe... that is a VERY BAD and UNSAFE ground that can become unreliable over time. You MUST have a good "ground" or "earth" for the electricity in your home or apartment. "Proper" ground/earth rods are made of copper and are about 3-3.5 meters long. These are driven into the ground until perhaps 1/3 of a meter of the rod remains above the ground (dirt). AND the ground rod should be put into dirt that is NOT very dry. The ground rod needs moisture in the dirt to operate efficiently. The ground rod will not be connected directly to your Yamaha AVR but the neutral AC power line eventually references ground/earth at some point and that can be all it takes to remove leakage voltage into the neutral wire.
 

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PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE MESSAGE... How much do you know about electricity? Is the power plug you use in India "polarized" so that it can only be inserted into an AC power socket ONE WAY? If the answer to that question is NO, then unplug the power cord, reverse the prongs on the power plug by rotating the power plug 180 degrees, then plug it in again and check the voltage on the chassis. If you still have a voltage on the chassis, you can stop it by making a ground/earth wire that connects the Yamaha receiver chassis (use any screw on the back of the Yamaha, but you need to remove the paint around the screw for good electrical connection. The Yamaha receiver is designed to work on electrical systems with 1 wire providing power (220 VAC or 120 VAC) while the second wire is "neutral" which is not exactly the same thing as "ground" or "earth". If your electricity supply is 120 VAC on BOTH wires (when they combine, you get 220 VAC), that is NOT CORRECT for the Yamaha receiver. Another possible problem is the electrical ground in your home or apartment building. Older buildings often have NO actual ground or earth connection. They may have connected the ground/earth to a water pipe or metal sewer pipe... that is a VERY BAD and UNSAFE ground that can become unreliable over time. You MUST have a good "ground" or "earth" for the electricity in your home or apartment. "Proper" ground/earth rods are made of copper and are about 3-3.5 meters long. These are driven into the ground until perhaps 1/3 of a meter of the rod remains above the ground (dirt). AND the ground rod should be put into dirt that is NOT very dry. The ground rod needs moisture in the dirt to operate efficiently. The ground rod will not be connected directly to your Yamaha AVR but the neutral AC power line eventually references ground/earth at some point and that can be all it takes to remove leakage voltage into the neutral wire.
Excellent advice in general, for civilized counties. The only issue is that if the mains power supply is floating as I described for Lima, peru, then reversing the mains plus will not really help as neither polarity is 0 VAC.
 

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I am living in USA and cannot reverse the power plug as it is polarized. Chassis voltage is around 15V/35V and it is propagated to all the equipment RCA connectors and even the hdmi of the TV.
The only solution that I see is to add a green/yellow wire from a chassis screw to the Ground (Earth) of the power supply plug.
I did it before on another amplifier that had a grounding tab.
Before doing that I have to check the voltage between the chassis and the Ground (Earth) of the power supply plug.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE MESSAGE... How much do you know about electricity? Is the power plug you use in India "polarized" so that it can only be inserted into an AC power socket ONE WAY? If the answer to that question is NO, then unplug the power cord, reverse the prongs on the power plug by rotating the power plug 180 degrees, then plug it in again and check the voltage on the chassis. If you still have a voltage on the chassis, you can stop it by making a ground/earth wire that connects the Yamaha receiver chassis (use any screw on the back of the Yamaha, but you need to remove the paint around the screw for good electrical connection. The Yamaha receiver is designed to work on electrical systems with 1 wire providing power (220 VAC or 120 VAC) while the second wire is "neutral" which is not exactly the same thing as "ground" or "earth". If your electricity supply is 120 VAC on BOTH wires (when they combine, you get 220 VAC), that is NOT CORRECT for the Yamaha receiver. Another possible problem is the electrical ground in your home or apartment building. Older buildings often have NO actual ground or earth connection. They may have connected the ground/earth to a water pipe or metal sewer pipe... that is a VERY BAD and UNSAFE ground that can become unreliable over time. You MUST have a good "ground" or "earth" for the electricity in your home or apartment. "Proper" ground/earth rods are made of copper and are about 3-3.5 meters long. These are driven into the ground until perhaps 1/3 of a meter of the rod remains above the ground (dirt). AND the ground rod should be put into dirt that is NOT very dry. The ground rod needs moisture in the dirt to operate efficiently. The ground rod will not be connected directly to your Yamaha AVR but the neutral AC power line eventually references ground/earth at some point and that can be all it takes to remove leakage voltage into the neutral wire.
well for starters i happen to be an electronics engineer and i probably guess i know what am saying.lets go one by one
1.ya reversing the plug i already did it.thats not the reason.
2. i have checked it at 3 seperate well built new homes and i think u didnt read or chose to ignore the fact that this was even checked at the yamaha authorized service centre.now please dont tell me they were wrong as well.
Now coming to my home these are the analog multimeter readings
neutral-phase -230
phase-ground -230
neutral-phase-0
so theres practically no issue.this is actually either an smps or transformer issue and yamaha hasnt taken care of the floating ground and the voltage is now on the body.
i dont know why customers would like to absolve yamaha from the defect because clearly here they are saying both 1.only mine among the lot has it and wen asked as to why diff models across the world does they say 2.its there on almost all and then wen i ask why many of all these models dont have it they start speaking **** which isnt remotely related to the question as they know they dont have an answer.
see i have nothing against yamaha and i know yamaha has its fans but that doesnt qualify to absolve yamaha of its bad QA.
now coming back to grounding it.i didnt buy a costly receiver to start doing DIY u see.i cud have them gone for cheaper amps.
see this is wat i have been saying all along.only because say for example apple produces 2 phones and one gives 3 hrs backup and the other 6 doesnt mean that the guy who spent same money is asked to increase his charging frequency per day.its absurd.a fault is a fault is a fault.its not only that.the company has been super evasive about this.only one service manager accepted it and said a report will be filed and escalated to prevent this on upcoming models.
 

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"yamaha hasn't taken care of the floating ground and the voltage is now on the body "
It is exactly the root cause.
I got a similar issue but worst (90vac) on a Marantz in the 80's.
At that time safety regulation were very relaxed.
My guess is that it is the power transformer that is leaking some voltage to the chassis.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
"yamaha hasn't taken care of the floating ground and the voltage is now on the body "
It is exactly the root cause.
I got a similar issue but worst (90vac) on a Marantz in the 80's.
At that time safety regulation were very relaxed.
My guess is that it is the power transformer that is leaking some voltage to the chassis.
the scary part is this.the seller had told me this at first.even if u go to yamaha they will blame ur wiring and that will be it.he said even some devices he own too have this.he even showed me over a video call.Thing is yamaha users who have seen this are also in the same denial mode that yamaha is.its strange they will blame their transmission or ground it using a wire without even thinking twice as to why they shud put up with a defect that the manufacturer is not only responsible for but adamant enough not to fix it and blame the consumers local transmission for the cause.Thats wat is sickening.also this isnt an isolated issue.across regions and across diff models even amplifiers of yamaha have this.u know wat they were arrogant enough to tell me no,never till date this has occured and that we have checked with all our service centres if they have got similar complaints.now u see whr the blame rests.us customers who never report therby letting yamaha easily off the hook and thats why this issue persists across generations and on random models.if we raise voice enough they wont be able to deny and will actually start looking into this and fixing it.if not current devices at least we wont get defective devices in future and it wud also serve as a wake up call for other avr manufacturers too.but alas even after few weeks of giving all details wen again yamaha users or general users on diff forums keep asking same ques smhw to satisy themselves or i dont know why to smhw pin it on the home electrical connection is surprising.i thought customers shud be holding their providers to higher standards.the hell will they sell it to u for less as urs seem to have this issue...no rt?then i dont see why u cant ask them as to why ur product is having smthng which doesnt exist on others.
 

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I did not ignore that it was in the Yamaha service center. I only ignored how useless service centers are for this because it is very possible they do not understand the issue or how to troubleshoot it. In the USA, service centers are not operated by the manufacturers... they are just companies with "technicians" (who know how to change parts for common problems, but who won't be skilled enough to deal with voltage leaking to the chassis. In the US, these people may be paid $20 per hour or $40,000 per year but they have no "degree" from a university. An electrical engineer would be paid $50 per hour (or more) and would never work in a service center when a larger salary is possible working for a company that uses electrical engineers to design new equipment. So when anybody says, it has been to the manufacturer service center, that is not really a great place for a device with an unusual problem to be diagnosed and fixed. I would send a "registered" letter to Yamaha in India (so you have proof that they received the letter) telling them that if you or anyone else is harmed by electrical voltage on the chassis of the AVR you own as long as you own it and that Yamaha and the Service Center will be responsible for the medical bills or death. Maybe you know somebody who knows how to write a good letter... a lawyer/solicitor maybe.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I did not ignore that it was in the Yamaha service center. I only ignored how useless service centers are for this because it is very possible they do not understand the issue or how to troubleshoot it. In the USA, service centers are not operated by the manufacturers... they are just companies with "technicians" (who know how to change parts for common problems, but who won't be skilled enough to deal with voltage leaking to the chassis. In the US, these people may be paid $20 per hour or $40,000 per year but they have no "degree" from a university. An electrical engineer would be paid $50 per hour (or more) and would never work in a service center when a larger salary is possible working for a company that uses electrical engineers to design new equipment. So when anybody says, it has been to the manufacturer service center, that is not really a great place for a device with an unusual problem to be diagnosed and fixed. I would send a "registered" letter to Yamaha in India (so you have proof that they received the letter) telling them that if you or anyone else is harmed by electrical voltage on the chassis of the AVR you own as long as you own it and that Yamaha and the Service Center will be responsible for the medical bills or death. Maybe you know somebody who knows how to write a good letter... a lawyer/solicitor maybe.
hmm.i sent them a legal notice to which they havent responded yet.there are many issues at hand here

1.attitude and arrogance of yamaha.saying smthng just to deny smthng.often contradicting the statement they said 5 mins earlier

2. the existence of an issue on multiple devices that too across regions which they sometimes claim to be a defect and sometimes dont depending on wat u accuse them of.unless they accept this it will keep occuring on models in future as well.i say so because it has been there on sm previous gen models viz.,473.And its very very bad to ask consumer to ground it wen u paid for a device that shud work the way it claims to.

as i have been saying earlier even in india i have yet to meet such kind of ineptitude from a private firm.
 
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