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Black Widow Ultra™ Development

124K views 238 replies 48 participants last post by  supahfly 
#1 ·
Recent developments with Auto Air Aluminum Fine have rendered the formula for making Black Widow™ useless. It first came to our attention here in this thread. This has resulted in us closing the Black Widow™ thread and researching what had changed that caused BW™ to no longer result in a neutral gray paint mix.

Don (Harpmaker) had several phone conversations with Createx and the finding were that they had changed the aluminum additive from a liquid form to an encapsulated powdered one (this was to prevent off gassing during shipment). This change resulted in a very different reaction with the base paint causing us to do further research with the new formulation of AAA.

This new research will be documented here. Please do not post here unless you have something to offer.

Bottles of AAA that have a lot number with an 81 or higher are the new AAA. Less than 81 would be the old that would work with Bermuda Beige.

Here are UPC photos of the old and new bottles:





Where the bottle label has WDXXXX-XXBX on it, you're looking at the red XX'x for a value. My old AAA has a value of 76 and the new bottle 86.

The positive aspect of all of this is that it should have very little effect upon the base paint as the old AAA did. If any of you were around when I came up with the base paint formula you'll recall I was mixing up paint for one of my kid's art projects while I was doing that testing. This time around should be a little easier! ;)

The three base paint colors I chose to test with the new AAA were these:

00NN 37/000 . . . "Granite Gray" [N6.7] - 162 162 161 - 66.62 -0.02 -0.28

00NN 53/000 . . . "Veil" [N7.8] - 190 190 189 - 76.99 -0.02 -0.11

and

00NN 72/000 . . . "Snowfield" [N8.8] - 219 220 219 - 87.68 -0.3 -0.3


Here are the readings of the base paints I purchased:

Granite Grey

159 159 157 (RGB)
0.314 0.331 34.6 (xyY)
65.4 -0.28 0.83 (CIE Lab)

Veil

189 189 188
0.314 0.330 50.7
76.5 -0.03 0.53

Snowfield

217 218 218
0.312 0.329 69.8
86.9 -0.27 -0.29


And here are the readings of the base paints mixed with the new AAA in a 4:1 ratio

Granite Grey + AAA

160 160 157
0.316 0.333 34.9
65.7 -0.23 1.51

Veil+AAA

187 187 186
0.314 0.331 49.7
75.9 -0.17 0.75

Snowfield+AAA

210 212 213
0.310 0.328 65.6
84.8 -0.56 -0.79

It appears that the new AAA had the least effect upon Veil. While the other two were still close to being neutral, the effect that the AAA had on each seems to have flip flopped from one side of Veil to the other. :scratch:

There will be more testing coming in the coming days/weeks. I have two of the new AAA panels sprayed already. Next I have to paint panels of just the base paint, the old BW™ mix, and a new Granite Grey:AAA panel. I purchased the Granite Gray at Home Depot and bought it a quart of it in Glidden Eggshell. It hot spots like the dickens!

I'll also be getting microscope shots of the panels so that you can compare the new AAA to the old.

Harp and I are hoping to get this wrapped up within a couple of weeks. But it will all depend upon two things - Harp getting over his bug and me finding time around family affairs.

Stay tuned... The best and most used worldwide DIY screen paint mix is about to get better! :bigsmile:
 
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#2 ·
Should be able to get some spraying done this week. They're calling for rain most of the day tomorrow. :T

I'm thinking that a better substitute for Snowfield in the N8.5-9ish area may be Sherwin Williams Spatial White. Thoughts on this Harp?

Spatial White
224 224 223
89.12 -0.04 0.61
 
#8 ·
I am actually in the process of repainting my screen again.

As some of you know, I made a BW screen that had the Valspar BB mixed with the new AAA-F formula and it was not what I expected. Kudos to mech and Harp to keep us all in the loop in regards to the changes in the mix.

Anyway, on to my adventure. I had 2 bottles of AAA-F, one old and one new. I had a quart of Behr tinted to BB and I got a quart of Valspar tinted to Glidden Universal Grey.

So what I did earlier was make two BW mixes, Behr with old AAA-F and Valspar with new AAA-F. I then blended the 2 mixes together. End result is a slightly lighter grey than the Behr BW mix.

I have yet to paint the screen though. I finished late re-taping the wall.

Don't worry, Don. I got 5 samples for you drying as I type this - 2 base paints, 2 with the added AAA-F, and 1 sample of the final mixture. I will mail them to you asap. Hopefully they will be helpful.
 
#9 ·
I am actually in the process of repainting my screen again.

As some of you know, I made a BW screen that had the Valspar BB mixed with the new AAA-F formula and it was not what I expected. Kudos to mech and Harp to keep us all in the loop in regards to the changes in the mix.

Anyway, on to my adventure. I had 2 bottles of AAA-F, one old and one new. I had a quart of Behr tinted to BB and I got a quart of Valspar tinted to Glidden Universal Grey.

So what I did earlier was make two BW mixes, Behr with old AAA-F and Valspar with new AAA-F. I then blended the 2 mixes together. End result is a slightly lighter grey than the Behr BW mix.
That is to be expected since 'Universal Gray' is about N8.3 IIRC which would make for a lighter BW™ mix. Everything should be pretty neutral in color though.

I have yet to paint the screen though. I finished late re-taping the wall.

Don't worry, Don. I got 5 samples for you drying as I type this - 2 base paints, 2 with the added AAA-F, and 1 sample of the final mixture. I will mail them to you asap. Hopefully they will be helpful.
I'll be more than happy to measure them for you, and I'll get to it MUCH faster than I am at testing the new BW™ mixes. The bug I had was a bad one; I was never super-sick, but it just didn't want to give up and I still have a lot of fatigue from it. I don't mean to "cry in my beer", just want to let people know what is going on.

One of the things under test is using the Glidden paint sold by Wal-Mart! When we design mixes we try to make the ingredients as easy to get as possible.
 
#10 ·
I repainted my wall yesterday and it has been drying for about 24 hours now. And all I can say is WOW. This is how it should've looked like at first. The performance with ambient lighting is awesome even my dad noticed it. And at the same time, my screen looks brighter compared to the one I had before, which was the Valspar BB with the new AAA-F mix.

And for the first movie/video test for this new screen, I was watching Spartacus (S03E03) on it a while ago and it found myself smiling with how nice and neutral the picture looked. I just can't believe this simple and cheap solution would improve my budget projector's (LG PA70G) output. I am so glad I went with the Black Widow instead of the suggestions from the other forum.

I am really thankful for you guys' effort and dedication in producing this screen mix. Very well done. And I am sure it will only become better. Again, thank you very much.

And Don, I will have the samples mailed to you on Monday.
 
#11 ·
I repainted my wall yesterday and it has been drying for about 24 hours now. And all I can say is WOW. This is how it should've looked like at first. The performance with ambient lighting is awesome even my dad noticed it. And at the same time, my screen looks brighter compared to the one I had before, which was the Valspar BB with the new AAA-F mix.
I'm really glad you are liking your screen. :bigsmile: It's funny you should mention that the neutral gray screen looks brighter than the BB/new AAA-F screen because the latter is actually lighter in shade, but not a neutral gray. I forget the term for the effect in color science, but the perceived brightness of an object is affected by it's color as well as it's actual light reflectance. For projection screens the more neutral the gray the better.

And for the first movie/video test for this new screen, I was watching Spartacus (S03E03) on it a while ago and it found myself smiling with how nice and neutral the picture looked. I just can't believe this simple and cheap solution would improve my budget projector's (LG PA70G) output. I am so glad I went with the Black Widow instead of the suggestions from the other forum.
We're glad too. We always cringe when someone gets talked into using one of those mica-heavy, polyurethane-infused mixes (assuming that is what you were referring to) that don't perform near as well as they are purported to. Not because their using those mixes costs us anything, but we know they are getting a less-than-optimal screen, paying through the nose for it, and in the case for the darker mixes they are having to mix 8 different paints (which we have shown to be unnecessary and a total waste of time) along with polyurethane to reach the final mix. And then there is the whole song and dance about applying them correctly. It's crazy! :coocoo:

BW™ (soon to be renamed Black Widow Ultra™) is a simple binary mix (just two paints are used), but a LOT of thought and experimentation went into making it that simple. ;)

I am really thankful for you guys' effort and dedication in producing this screen mix. Very well done. And I am sure it will only become better. Again, thank you very much.
You are VERY welcome! And thanks to YOU again for being one of the ones to report the problem with the old BW™ mix rather than just giving up and trying something else!

And Don, I will have the samples mailed to you on Monday.
:T
 
#17 ·
I keep thinking that I'll get to it and then something comes up. I was thinking today that I could get to it next week. But I say that every week. On the bright side, my kids are just about done with soccer. :huh:
 
#19 ·
Just adding another supplier, probably best/cheapest? :)

SummitRacing.com - http://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/auto-air-colors-4100-series-aluminum-base-paints

I bought a 32oz for $55 shipped to make a gallon. They drop ship direct from Createx and I received one today with lot number 97. Not sure how numbers will change once they go over lot 100.. What is recommended paint to mix with it now in the neutral gray? I have access to HD Behr, Lowes Valspar, and Sherwin Williams..
 
#20 ·
Planning on spraying panels today and mixing up some with a plain jane white base to see if it's still acceptable. Hopefully I can get all 6 panels done. I've only got about 4 hours to get it done.
 
#21 ·
4 panels are done and the fifth will be done shortly. That's all I'll have time for today. I actually have two more to do after this - an original BW™ and a Veil with no AAA.

My BW Ultra™ with Snowfield as a base panel ended up slightly messed up. It's been too long since I've used the Wagner Control Spray and I put too much paint down on the last pass and it ran while I was away doing other things. It'll have to do though as I'm not planning on re-doing it.

I will also mix up a 4:1 mix with a white base to test with the spectro before I pack it in for the day. I won't be spraying a panel of that.
 
#23 ·
Don't hold your breath! :eek: :bigsmile:

I decided today after looking at the Snowfield BW Ultra™ panel, I'll respray that one next week. Whenever you get runs in the paint, the aluminum tends to gather there. So I've got 3 left to spray. I should be able to get to them on either Thursday or Friday.
 
#24 ·
Some measures:

Sherwin Williams High Reflective White



Sherwin Williams HRW with AAA - 4:1



Valspar Ultra Premium Flat White base



Valspar Ultra Premium Flat White base with AAA 4:1



And my current finished panels:

Veil



Veil with AAA - 4:1



Granite Grey



Granite Grey with AAA - 4:1

 
#27 ·
I have no intention of trying it with a bunch of different paints. I've already gotten spectro readings from it mixed with a couple of white paints up a few posts. It's acceptable and I doubt there would be a dramatic change with other brands.
 
#28 ·
Sorry, not exactly sure how to read the charts, but im seeing an overall .6 gain in all color levels.. is that correct? Im hoping to get a .8 or so with Snowfield or is there another paint recommended to get a brighter equal level as Im going very large with the screen and need all the gain I can get. Do you recommend veil w aaa over snowfield for a brighter screen? Im in a dedicated theatre room /w no windows so ambient light doesnt matter much.

Thanks
 
#30 ·
I was thinking about one thing, i already try AAA and i saw some shimering because of the aluminium reflective particles of the paint and its very anoying. I read that the lumitec tecnology used in the Dulux paints uses titanium dioxide because its very reflective and thats why its white paint has almoust 1.1/1.2 gain. The titanium dioxide is a white pigment. Do you think its possible of ading the titanium dioxide white pigment to a neutral grey or even Black paint in a quantity that makes a grey mix with a good gain and no shimering? The dulux titanium white is very bright and as no shimering at all
 
#31 ·
Did you mix your AAA into the base paint in a 4:1 ratio (4 parts base to 1 part AAA)? Did you use the Fine grade of AAA?

Titanium Dioxide is the basic white pigment for white paints in most areas, and has been for decades. Before TiO2 was used they used to use a very white salt of Lead, but it was discovered that when paint based on the Lead salt was eaten by children it could cause brain damage thus it was dropped for TiO2,

They are unclear as to what exactly creates the LumiTec advantage. It could be simply using more TiO2 than they do in their regular paints, or it could be that the TiO2 is somehow made more reflective by altering the shape of the crystals.

Pure regular TiO2 powder does NOT have a gain over 1.0. The white tint added to paints at a paint store is comprised of TiO2.
 
#32 ·
Hi,

Following this thread with interest. Was planning to use the old BW formula but have not been able to find the old AAA formula. I'm based in the UK so we don't have the same paint brands. Looking to paint a screen that can cope fairly well with ambient light (windows+curtains/side lamp). I have a bright projector (GT750). Based on this, wondering what the best formula would be with new AAA, and whether you can give guidance on base paint to buy here in UK (don't know much about paints). If this is not the right place to ask, let me know if there is another thread I can ask this question - need to paint my projector wall quite soon (next week or two).

Thanks, L.
 
#33 ·
Welcome to HTS! :wave:

I know the Dulux brand paints have been used to make BW™ in the UK and are also available in a number of neutral gray tints when the added reflectance of BW™ isn't required. Now that the aluminum paint for making BW™ has changed instead of getting a pinkish beige base paint you would just get one of the neutral gray colors and mix the new AAA-F into it.

For making a Black Widow Ultra™ mix that matches the old BW™ you would use Dulux paint in standard matt or vinyl matt finish in the color 00NN 53/000 which is also called 'Clouded Slate 2' or 'Grey Steel 2' and is approximately a N7.8 neutral gray color.

How large a screen are you making, and how close will you be sitting to it when viewing?
 
#37 ·
First, let me thanks everybody for the excellent research that has been accomplished here.

Given that only the new AAA is available, I'm going to have to participate in BW Ultra development. Our house is being remodeled and we've signed up the paint crew to handle this part of the job as well.

The projection surface is along a Eastern wall right next to a large Southern exposure that is mostly sliding glass door. The floors are finished white oak and the ceiling is a darker exposed wood of some unknown '60s construction choice. We don't have a blackout solution, so the environment will be fairly bright most of the time.

We have a Sony VPL-HS20, 1400 lumens, 1300:1 contrast ratio. The throw is somewhat under 13' 9". We've been using this projector against a white wall in a different bright environment since 2004 so we're used to it being washed out and unusable except late at night.

Our plans were to paint these walls with Benjamin Moore "Smoke Embers" 1466. The projection wall section is separated by a full height fireplace brick surround, so we're thinking of just painting that entire wall segment with BW Ultra and forgoing a picture frame around the image. We previously enjoyed the disappearance of the screen in our old setup so this seems natural.

The question is what Benjamin Moore color should we consider switching to as the base here instead of Smoke Embers to get a good result in BW Ultra? I've tried translating the Glidden and Munsell numbers over to BM and am generally amazed by the non-pureness of the greys being shown by the BM website. If the new AAA wants a more pure grey instead of a slightly red/orange one, then why are these converted colors looking so "non-grey" to me?

Also, does anybody have any experience with BM's finish choices? Our other walls are slated to be eggshell, but I'm wondering now if that will cause hot spots with BM paint.
 
#41 ·
Sorry for being so VERY late in this reply. I could give you the reasons for that, but it will do to just say that sometimes life just gets in the way.

BM has very few truly neutral gray colors in their listed paints, but your PJ isn't all that bright and you could well do best by just using BM's white paint as a base for Black Widow Ultra™. Mech has tested his sample at N8.5. Most white paints are around N9.5 out of the can. I'm unfamiliar with the BM gloss levels so I can only recommend to use a flat or matte finish.

What size screen are you painting?
 
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