There are a couple of Emotiva owners here. Unfortunately I am not one of them. I'm sure they'll be along soon with some comments.

 

Well formatted post with easy to understand questions:

No experience, but their equipment is generally well regarded as good performers and great value.

No you're not missing anything, and .1% distortion is usually the figure used for maximum acceptable value (no perceptible distortion), so don't sweat it.

7.1 ins used for sources that externally decode audio, such as a blu-ray player with analog outs. You likely won't use them but they do insure that, regardless of what new audio formats come down the pipe, you'll always be able to take advantage of them.

7.1 outs are what you connect to your amp.

No missing audio formats.

UMC-1 is a pre-amp. Does all processing, but no amplifying.

If you do buy from Emotiva, make sure they know that you first came upon them here at the shack. It helps keep the forums running.

 

Thanks Mark and Marshall. I do hope some of the Emotiva owners will chime in. I'd like to know if anyone has heard and can compare the Emotiva XPA-5 plus UMC-1 (or the now-discontinued LMC-1) with the Rotel 1560. The Rotel lacks some features found in the Emotiva UMC-1, which lacks some features found in the Yamaha/Denon/Onkyo receivers in the $1500 to $1900 price range. The Rotel is the most expensive offering among those I've listed, and is a class D design, which has pluses and minues. I also understand from reviews that the Rotel is not the easiest unit to set up and configure. But sound quality is the most important thing, so hearing from someone who has experienced both Emotiva and Rotel would be helpful.

 

The Emotiva UMC1 is getting a lot of interest around forums lately and at $699 it seems to be a bargain, lots of features for a very good price, Rotel have always been good for solid products and excellent SQ but lacking in the bells and whistles that others throw in, the new 15 series amps are extremely good and based on ICEpower, I have had a 1575 for a few months now and am completely satisfied with its performance and quite a few manufacturers are using this power amp technology, IIRC Pioneer are now using it also in there AV amp range...

 

There are a variety of ways to interpret power ratings.

Here are the ratings for the Emotiva XPA-5:
All Channels Driven at 1Khz, 250 watts RMS per channel into 8 Ohms (0.04% THD)
All Channels Driven at 20Hz-20kHz, 200 watts RMS per channel into 8 Ohms (0.1% THD)

You'll just have to accept that the Emotiva XPA-5 provides something under 200 watts per channel with all channels driven at 20Hz-20kHz into 8 Ohms with 0.04% THD. That "something under" is likely at least 150 watts.

The Emotiva UMC-1 and XPA-5 I listened to driving PSB Imagine T towers, center and bookshelves with a PSB SubSeries 500 subwoofer accounted themselves very well. One of the best home theaters I have listened to and watched (60" Sharp Aquos LCD and Samsung Blu-ray) to date.

 

Hello,
Emotiva really has made a name for themselves for offering stupendous values. Especially in the realm of amplifiers.
Here are a couple of reviews of XPA Series Amplifiers: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/496.html?showall=1
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/emotiva-xpa-2-stereo-power-amplifier

They offer plenty of power and heavy duty transformers and capacitors to back it up. All at prices that seem too good to be true. There are many Emotiva fans all over the internet with some almost seeming fanatical about the company.

I really like the XPA Series. I am a fan of Class A/AB power amplifiers with large transformers and a goodly amount of capacitance. Emotiva also offers amplifiers that are not A/AB with much of their lineup being Class H. Class H is similar to Class G and is cooler running and more efficient than Class A or A/AB.
Cheers,
JJ

 

As JJ said, Emotiva's products are stupendous values. They really compete, performance-wise, with higher priced models without being high priced themselves. I really enjoyed my Emotiva MPS-2 when I had it and now my brother is enjoying it. The reason I eventually moved away from them is to get more power. I wanted lots more power for my front speakers and the Emo was limited in overall power.

 

Since I've been auditioning various amps and speakers lately, I've learned to appreciate the value of auditioning. Being unlearned and largely ignorant of audio specifications, I find myself unable to relate what I read on paper to what I hear when I listen to the equipment. I have found that I can't judge whether or not I'll like the sound based on the specs.

I continue to be interested in the Emotiva products, especially at the price, but I'm ruling them out for now since I can't audition them. Right now I have no HT or stereo system at all since my amp died, so getting some quality sight and sound back into my home is my number one priority. I am approaching it cautiously, so as to avoid ending up with something I'm not totally pleased with.

I'm leaning toward Rotel RSX-1550 and B&W 804S fronts with HTM3S or 4S center. I have auditioned several combinations of A/V receiver amp and speakers, and these, at least within my budget, seem best to my ears so far. I'm going to audition again this evening, in fact.

Emotiva does have a great 30 day return policy. I may try them at some point. I'll compare them with whatever I decide to buy first, and the loser will go up on Audiogon.

 

Hello,
I greatly respect the desire to audition a piece of equipment prior to making a purchase. Have you listened to the Rotel with the 804's? Why I am asking is that in my experience, B&W 800 Series sound their best with at least 200 WPC. Given that Rotel and B&W are almost always sold at the same stores, I would guess that you have.

That would be an excellent system. If possible, try to audition an Onkyo TX-SR876 if there is a dealer in your area. The 876 weighs 15 more pounds than the 1550 with almost all of that weight being in the amplifier section. Furthermore, the 876 features Reon video processing which is excellent.
Cheers,
JJ

 

Hello,
I greatly respect the desire to audition a piece of equipment prior to making a purchase. Have you listened to the Rotel with the 804's? Why I am asking is that in my experience, B&W 800 Series sound their best with at least 200 WPC. Given that Rotel and B&W are almost always sold at the same stores, I would guess that you have.

The reason they are usually sold together is B&W owns Rotel. As such they generally pair their speakers with their amps. You'll also notice the high end speakers often get paired with Classe amps, and that is again for the same reason: B&W owns Classe. So they are the amps matched to their speakers, so to speak.

That was one of the reasons I got my Rotel amp back in the day, since I had and liked B&W speakers.

Personally I'm real interested in Emotiva amps. They finally got around to posting a full set of Audio Precision test data and their amps look exceedingly solid. One of the things that impresses me is that despite being quite high power, they are better than 90dB SNR at 1 watt. This is important since you spend a awful lot of your time playing at levels around there. So it is important to have a good SNR at low levels to get good detail in your music. Also important because if it is too high, you'll get audible hiss at idle.

Rotel amps are the same way, by the way (at least the old AB amps, haven't looked at the D amps yet). Exceedingly low noise overall, translating in to low noise at low wattage.

Emotiva amps also are no when it comes to their power and current output. They have a massive power stage backing them (as their AP tests show). Means their ratings are nice and conservative and their power levels are "Power the amp can sustain all the time, and maintain low distortion." Again same deal on Rotel. A 70 watt RB-1050 doesn't mean 70 watts absolute max, it means 70 watts without any rise in distortion. In both cases the massive amount of current means they can drive complex speakers without problems usually.

At any rate, if I decide I want another amp, I'll probably give Emotiva a shot. Their designs remind me of Rotel in a number of ways, but their are a good deal cheaper.

 

I'm currently using two of their amplifiers and think they are some of the best bang for the buck pieces I've ever used. The sound quality for HT is on par with anything else I've ever heard and better than some - far superior to anything I've ever heard from a receiver. Overall I say give them a try.

 

What speakers are you using? Which Emotiva amps?

 

Hi JJ. Yes, I've listened to older 10xx series amps and the 1550 with the 804S speakers. They all seemed like they had plenty of power to drive the speakers, but being a novice with high quality gear, I could be missing something. I'm going to another store to listen to the class D Rotel amp (1560) this evening.

I'm also a little concerned about whether the Rotel amps have the power to drive the 804S, but mainly just based on comments like yours. The salesman at the audio store where I auditioned the 804S opined that the Rotel could drive them, but he said the Denon 3310ci I was also looking at might be hard pressed, even if bi-amping the main speakers.

The Denon 3310ci is rated at 120 WPC, but they don't describe on their web site how they test. The conservative assumption is that it is based on a 1kHz test for one channel at a time, which tends to overstate the real world power.

According to Rotel, the 1550 has 75 watts x 5/ch (20-20kHz, <0.05% THD, 8 ohms), and is a class A/B design. The 1560 has 100 watts x 7/ch (20-20kHz, <0.03% THD, 8 ohms).

It's hard to directly compare the Onkyo amp that you mentioned, the TX-SR876, because they don't list the specs in the same way. They are listed for 2 channels at a time, like this:

Front L/R - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Center - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround Back - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

The difficulty in comparing specs from one vendor to the next is one reason why I'm auditioning. One problem with that approach though, is that if I go to another dealer to listen to amps that the B&W dealer doesn't carry, I probably won't be able to compare the sound on the same 804S speakers. It's a bit frustrating, an apples and oranges scenario.

 

Number 5,
Actually looking at the specific specs of your speakers, 90db efficient, 8 ohm nominal load, you really might be alright with the Rotel driving them. Your room size and listening habits will have a huge say in how happy you will be with the Rotel driving the 804S. Looking at this review :http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/b&w-804s-htm3s-speakers-8-2005-part-1.html
it does show the 804 does dip down to 4 ohms, but not through the entire frequency range.

Here are the measurements for the TX-SR875 which has the identical amplifier section:http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html
Given how inexpensive the XPA-2 is, I would still advocate picking up one of them to drive your 804's.
The XPA-2 puts out a solid 400 watts into 4 ohms and will better harness your speaker.

If not the Emotiva as an add on, the Onkyo has far greater drive capability. While looking at the RSX-1550 at Rotel's website, I noticed it was rated at 75 WPC ACD. And in reading the reviews provided by Rotel on its website for the 1550, one review described the difficulties when driving Von Schweikert speakers when under review. Here is the link for the review: http://www.rotel.com/content/reviews/15 series/rsx1550-equip_rotel_cm.pdf

If it was not for the fact that you are using B&W's 800 Series, I would not even think twice about using the Rotel. Having much experience listening to them, I just honestly believe truly shine when given lots of current.
Cheers,
JJ

 

You can audition Emotiva stuff, with your speakers, in your room. All it will cost you is the return shipping if you make a return.

From the Emotiva website: "Emotiva offers a 30 day, no questions asked and hassle-free, return policy. Simply call 1-877-EMO-TECH for an RMA number. Once we have received your unit(s), checking to make sure they are intact, we will issue a refund for the full purchase amount. It’s that simple!"

 

So if I "auditioned" the Emotiva amps, what would likely make a better setup for providing plenty of power to the speakers? The XPA-2 at 250 watts per channel (2 channels) plus the XPA-3 at 200 watts per channel (3 channels), or the XPA-5 at 200 watts per channel (5 channels). I'm going for a 5.1 setup, not 7.1. Of course, in this case I'd probably team up the amp choices with the UMC-1 pre/pro.

By the way, isn't the .1% THD on these amps fairly marginal when you compare it with .05% or .08% that is common on many other mid-range choices (Rotel, Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha)?

 

Well, at the risk of stating the obvious, the 2/3 combo would give you more rated power. If you're asking if that extra 50watts is warranted, if you have the money and space in your rack, sure, why not. However, IMHO, unless you have a very large room or inefficient speakers, the 5 would probably suit you just fine.

If you're on a budget, but still think you want the most power, start with the 3 and get an AVR with 7.1 outs. Run the front 3 off your amp and the surrounds off the AVR. Like what you hear? Buy the 2nd amp when you have the scratch.

 

Hello,
I would go with the XPA-2 and XPA-3 combo over the XPA-5. Here's why, believe it or not the XPA-2 shares the same toroidal transformer (1.2 kVA) as the XPA-5 and only 6000u less capacitance than the XPA-5. That is the XPA-2 has virtually the same power supply as the XPA-5.

While the XPA-3 is not nearly as impressive as the XPA-2, when the two are combined you would have a 2 kVA toroidal transformer (almost twice as large a transformer as the XPA-5) and more capacitance with the XPA-2/XPA-3 over the XPA-5. And, if two channel stereo performance is important to you, you will have an awesome two channel amplifier and a very capable three channel amplifier for the Center and Surround Channels.

While the more expensive solution, the XPA-2/XPA-3 combo would offer much more power and far, far greater power reserves. And if you are still planning on going with B&W 804S's, it really is a no brainer as those are awesome speakers and well deserving of the much higher current reserves of the XPA-2.
Cheers,
JJ

 

JJ, it makes sense. I thank you and everyone else who is helping to contribute to my education in this thread. I very well may go with Emotiva as a result.

Can someone explain what the significance of higher capacitance is?

five

 

As I understand it, stored power for highly dynamic sound. Your levels may bounce along just fine, but when there's a big dB increase, you need the stored power.

Re-reading that, it was a pretty horrible explanation, but I can think of a good analogy right now. How about this...the capacitors are the town water tower. If everyone flushes the toilet at once, you'll need more water than just the water pump can provide.

 

I understand perfectly your analogy.... however, I would not eat in this town. Sounds like an epidemic if everyone has to flush at the same time.

Sorry couldn't resist. Actually its a great analogy.

 

Hello,
I like to think of capacitors as batteries. They store energy and when there is a peak on a piece of music or often in a movie, they act as a reservoir for power. They also smooth ripple on supply voltage.

Having a high level of capacitance allows for huge peaks of stable power when the moment demands it.
Cheers,
JJ

 

Here is a presentation-format PDF from HiFi Critic discussing class D amps. They conclude that class D amplifiers are not HiFi.

Are Class "D" Amplifiers High Fidelity?

Very interesting. It is pretty thorough, even though it is neither written as a "white paper" or as a article. But there is plenty of detail in the presentation. After reading it, I have strong misgivings about class D amps.

 

Hi number 5,

I think to dismiss/confirm any misgivings you really need to hear a class D amp in action, I was not expecting to be overly impressed with the new Rotel 1575 but it is very good indeed, at present I have an Arcam AVR600 on home demo and am using as a processor with the 1575 powering my M&K's and the sound is exquisite to say the least...

I think there is good and bad designs in all types of amplification, and there is a lot of myths related to the class D debate and whether it can really be as good for hifi as say class A amps, my real passion was at first HiFi and have had some very good systems over the years, and it is all very subjective and more down to different peoples preferences rather than a particular class of amp being better or worse for HiFi, ie some people prefer a warmer sound ala valves whereas I prefer a crisp dynamic presentation which is what the rotel delivers in spades...

Its all good in the end but the best advice is to listen first before coming to any conclusions

 

The article makes the mistake of broad claims based on limited sample size. It is certainly true that some Class D amplifiers are better executed than others (as can be said about ALL amplifiers) and that some will exhibit switching noise. But to state that one test sample indicates all Class D is bad is spurious at best. Also, noise out of the audible band is, well, inaudible.

There are some very fine implementations of Class D and its variations out there, and the bad sounding examples from the past are becoming few and far between. I own an Alpine car amplifier based on the B&O IcePower module, and a home amplifier based on the Hypex Class D modules, and both sound very outstanding indeed.

And BTW, since this is a thread about Emotiva amplifiers, it is worth noting that none of their current offerings are Class D - indeed, they have never to my knowledge produced a class D amplifier. All their currently available amps are class A/B.

 

True, the Emotiva is class AB. I was also looking at Wyred 4 Sound's ST-1000 which is class D, built around the Bang & Olufsen ICEpower technology. So my comment about class D amps was misplaced in this thread.

 

Hello,
Recruit, glad that you are pleased with the performance of the Rotel. I have heard great things about the Arcam as well and am intrigued. However, I believe that the Arcam has a Class G amplifier section and is not digital or Class D and incorporates a large toroidal power transformer. Class G amplifiers do however consume less power and are more efficient than class A/AB amplifiers.

I am seriously considering the AVR600 in addition to Sherwood Newcastle's R-972 as my next AVR. Or perhaps the AV888 though the more I read about the performance of the Arcam's amplifier section, the more I am contemplating the 600 as opposed to the 888.

Sherwood Newcastle's R-972 is using Trinnov room EQ and the reports have been overwhelmingly positive. Prior to its inclusion in the Sherwood unit, Trinnov was only offered in 13,000 Dollar processors and were employed by several Movie Studio's for their reference systems.
Cheers,
JJ

 

Hi JJ,

Yes, you are right, the Arcam does indeed have a class G amplification, tomorrow I am going to run my M&K's by the AVR600 alone without the Rotel which should be interesting, also hopefully will have an AV888 to try out also and will use with the Rotel 1575 so should be a fun week for me :whistling:

I am going to try and write up my thoughts on both the Arcam units and post it here, but from just 2 days of listening to the 600 it has to be one of finest sounds I have heard to date, I dont know how they have done it but it gives a truly exquisite sound, with thunderous bass when required...obviously this is using the Rotel as the poweramp as I have not heard it by its internals amps yet but by all reports it is very special indeed and runs in class A mode up to 20watts.

Anyway I wont take this off topic any further and post in a seperate thread once I have finished listening to both of them.

The sherwoods have always had a good following and the EQ system sounds intriguing

cheers

John

 

I have an Emotiva XPA-5 along with (2) XPA monoblocks. I've had them about a month now. The XPA-5 sounds excellent and performs flawlessly. Over the past 20 years I have ownes amps by Sony ES, Acurus, the Classe CA-200 & CAV-75, Pass Labs X-150 and the Anthem MCA-20 & MCA-50. The Emotiva's sound as good or better than any of my previous amps and more bang for the buck then all of them.
The only flaw I have found is a slight pinging sound that occassionally occurs on "one" of my XPA-1 monoblocks when warming up and cooling down. Emotiva stated that this is the normal expansion/contraction of the heat sinks. You can only hear it on very quiet passages for about the first 30 minutes it is turned on and after you have turned it off. It might occur once every 5 minutes or so. If music is playing you usually cannot hear it.

 

Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong-if you do not use blu-ray, then perhaps you could use an older processor to handle any audio processing from regular dvd's without compromise; however, if using (or potentially upgrading) to blu-ray, you must use a newer 1.3 hdmi-capable processor in order to utilize the newer format audio on blu-ray. You cannot use the 7.1 preouts from a higher-end blu-ray player sent to an older processor's inputs and obtain the newer format audio quality, correct?

Anyone (else) have any reservations about buying the UMC-1 as a first run vs another company's 'proven' processor?

 

Hello,
Actually, you can use an older processor provided it has multichannel inputs to receive the newest codecs (True-HD, DTS-MA) The player decodes and sends the signal via 6 channels of interconnects. You will have to rely on the player to do bass management, speaker distance and level matching. In addition, compared to a 1.3 processor, you also lose room EQ (Audyssey, MCACC) With the exception of the 5K Pioneer VSX-49TX/59 and a handful of other pre HDMI processors, using the multichannel inputs bypasses everything. Whereas the Pioneer actually could do bass management. That was a mixed bag in that the pristine signal was then converted to PCM.

And with an older HDMI processor, you can still get the codecs as well. You just cannot bitstream them and have your processor or receiver decode them. Thus, your AVR/SSP will not light up True-HD or DTS-MA. The player will output PCM to an HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 AVR as multichannel PCM. In theory the SQ should be the same. An example being even with a current 1.3 processor, the original PS3 could not bitstream True HD and DTS-MA. However, it could decode it internally and send it as PCM. Moreover, the first Blu Ray Players could not bitstream True-HD or DTS-MA. However, with an earlier HDMI processor, you do have access to the processors/AVR's bass management, speaker distance settings, room EQ.
Cheers,
JJ

 

Thanks for the reply-sorry I'm a bit fuzzy on this stuff. What I gather is if using an older processor, say an outlaw 970/990, both of which have no hdmi but rather 7.1 inputs (rca), the processor will pretty much pass the signal through to the amp, thus losing control of many functions. Therefore, if using a player with True-HD or DTS-MA, you really NEED a current 1.3 processor to obtain the sound, otherwise, as far as sound is concerned, you may as well use standard dvd along with a DTS or dolby digital capable processor. Of course, this is from a purely audio standpoint. Am I correct on all this?

 

Nope, if using 7.1 inputs, you'll just have to set the speaker size/crossover in your player, not the receiver. You'll also likely not be able to take advantage of any EQ built into the pre.

However, for the price of those outlaws you mentioned, you could get a standard AVR with HDMI 1.3 and pre-outs that could easily be sold or transferred to a bedroom system when you're done with it.