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I had hoped to address this, too, but there was just too much stuff to get into our few-hour-exercise. A matter for future consideration.
What do you suggest when the back of the seat is higher than the ears?

Most say you need the mic at least 12" away from the seat back to avoid reflections, are you saying not to do that?

Ears are approx. 6/7" away from the seat back, should one just place the mic there?
 
Hi rapaolloav. I use a plush blanket over the seat back when doing measurements and cal, and listening (alone). I know a few others here that do too. Not sure if that's what your looking for.
 
Hi rapaolloav. I use a plush blanket over the seat back when doing measurements and cal, and listening (alone). I know a few others here that do too. Not sure if that's what your looking for.
Yes I do that too but do you also keep the mic exactly where the ears are which would be closer than 12" away from the back of the seat?
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
What do you suggest when the back of the seat is higher than the ears?

Most say you need the mic at least 12" away from the seat back to avoid reflections, are you saying not to do that?

Ears are approx. 6/7" away from the seat back, should one just place the mic there?
From my perspective, I am still trying to figure out a good answer to your question. I have tried a lot of methods and none have been satisfactory, and have gone back and forth a bit on what I recommend. Right now I am leaning toward what you suggested above, 12" or more away, above the top of the seat back and forward somewhat, so it would be roughly straight above the top of your head if you were seated (don't be for measurements, though), perhaps a little forward of that. That is my best suggestion right now.

The problem with trying to put the mic where the head location would be is that everything changes there when you are actually seated, so that position is not an accurate representation of reality when you are not there. Trying to take measurements while you are seated is ridiculously complicated, so don't try that. Best to get away from that area a foot or so, above the disturbances but still centered on the LP as much as possible so that timings from speakers are accurate.

This is for Audyssey, by the way, the answer for Dirac is different. I will elaborate.
 
From my perspective, I am still trying to figure out a good answer to your question. I have tried a lot of methods and none have been satisfactory, and have gone back and forth a bit on what I recommend. Right now I am leaning toward what you suggested above, 12" or more away, above the top of the seat back and forward somewhat, so it would be roughly straight above the top of your head if you were seated (don't be for measurements, though), perhaps a little forward of that. That is my best suggestion right now.

The problem with trying to put the mic where the head location would be is that everything changes there when you are actually seated, so that position is not an accurate representation of reality when you are not there. Trying to take measurements while you are seated is ridiculously complicated, so don't try that. Best to get away from that area a foot or so, above the disturbances but still centered on the LP as much as possible so that timings from speakers are accurate.

This is for Audyssey, by the way, the answer for Dirac is different. I will elaborate.

So the only solution is a microphone that looks like headphones that you wear on your head while the testing is performing using two mics that mimic your ears. Two MONO mics a left and right.

ONLY way to do this IMHO.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Well..... There is some wisdom in the idea. There are problems with it, too, the main one being measurement repeatability. Also, mic quality, ability of the system to handle two mic inputs gracefully, mic matching, and did I mention measurement repeatability? Then there is the issue of needing near 360 degree exposure of both mics so they can get clean measurements of the surrounds. And there is the shape of the Audyssey mic, and which mic is active for which speaker and and when, and...

I realize you were speaking somewhat generically, and again, I agree with your logic in principal, but there ARE complications.

Dirac Live seems to have solved the problem. The review of the nanoAVR DL looks at the question specifically. The first mic position needs to be at LP Center, and handles all the timing and L/R frequency response matching needs, and the other mic positions can be randomly spaced around the seat area (no symmetry or careful spacing required) and their "average" gives the proper frequency response profile. Easy as pie and gives superb, no-compromise results. Seriously, works like a dream, satisfies the critical needs of the LP and helps you minimally compromise overall FR if you wish to accommodate other seat positions.
 
From my perspective, I am still trying to figure out a good answer to your question. I have tried a lot of methods and none have been satisfactory, and have gone back and forth a bit on what I recommend. Right now I am leaning toward what you suggested above, 12" or more away, above the top of the seat back and forward somewhat, so it would be roughly straight above the top of your head if you were seated (don't be for measurements, though), perhaps a little forward of that. That is my best suggestion right now.

The problem with trying to put the mic where the head location would be is that everything changes there when you are actually seated, so that position is not an accurate representation of reality when you are not there. Trying to take measurements while you are seated is ridiculously complicated, so don't try that. Best to get away from that area a foot or so, above the disturbances but still centered on the LP as much as possible so that timings from speakers are accurate.

This is for Audyssey, by the way, the answer for Dirac is different. I will elaborate.
Wayne I too have experimented many many times, writing everything down and always getting better to worse results.

Can you elaborate a bit on why you like just ONE measurement more than 3/4 or more please, Im very interested in your thoughts?

What I find with all my experiments is actually the bass seems cleaner for me with just one measurement then audyssey turned OFF!

I find every time no matter what positions I test for XT32, when I engage it the treble is too bright for my likings and the bass is coloured or distorted someway. I will try to explain.... With EQ engaged the bass notes seem to be extended and run for longer than what they should, which makes the bass sound wrong... Without EQ the bass notes stop BANG in their tracks, none of the extension, no distortion, its clean, big and smooth in all 12 seats...

I keep trying to use EQ as it almost seems like a religion that one should follow, but still after hundreds and hundreds of EQs, reading every forum on the planet about Audyssey I cant get it to sound good in my cinema!

Do you think this is true for some rooms?
I use it in my lounge room that's furnished with the normal things and its fine, better on...
My cinema is a very different room with lots of bass trapping, and acoustic treatments. Seems od that a room that's more perfect for acoustics should sound worse with it on than off... When a lounge room with normal acoustics should sound better with EQ turned on...:rolleyesno:

Interested in your thoughts????
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Audyssey XT32 (without Pro Kit) vs Dirac Live End User Experience Comparison Summary of Audible Characteristics

  • Audyssey has two target curves available, only slightly different in sound. Users are forced to use external EQ in addition to Audyssey to get the sound they want if they are not happy with the stock target curves. Dirac Live makes virtually any desired tailored sound available through its highly customizable target curves, which can be applied to a single channel or to a channel group.
  • Dirac Live makes use of mixed-phase filtering. Low frequencies are corrected by minimum-phase filters which can be much more focused and correct LF response problems more effectively than Audyssey's all-FIR filtering system.
  • Audyssey is integrated with the AVR, which would seem to be ideal, but the reality is that AVR settings often have been changed improperly after an Audyssey calibration, affecting the sound negatively, and must be thoroughly checked and corrected after each Audyssey calibration. By remaining independent of the AVR's speaker settings, Dirac Live frees the end user from needing to recheck those settings.
  • The Audyssey correction algorithm puts the priority on frequency response averaging. Getting a decent soundstage and imaging (SS&I) result requires use of a single-mic-position calibration, with questionable frequency response, or a tight, carefully measured, symmetrical pattern focused on the LP. Dirac Live appears to use the first measurement at the LP as reference for all frequency response matching of speakers and for all timing information which is critical to soundstage and imaging. As a result, strong SS&I at the LP occurs with every calibration, and the remaining calibration measurement points can be randomly chosen, their primary function being to give the overall frequency response profile. Dirac Live gives repeatable and highly satisfactory results very easily from every calibration.
  • Where Audyssey users have developed complex processes to help them get desired results, Dirac Live gives desired results much more predictably and easily.




RapalloAV:

To answer your question directly, the single mic position calibration will give the best soundstage and imaging results. Using more mic positions, tightly spaced and carefully place for symmetry, gives better frequency response, but this gets more complicated, tedious, and hard to repeat.

Your bass problems could be from modal issues that are being boosted by Audyssey, causing ringing and distortion. That kind of thing varies immensely from room to room. You mentioned treatment and bass trapping, but really effective bass treatment is difficult, and without custom-designed traps for the modes in your room, the trapping you have might not be doing much for you at the frequencies where you need it.

Your issues with the high frequencies are most likely centered on the general brightness of Audysseys target curves, along with the acoustics around your seating. If your mic calibration pattern happens to catch an area with lowered high frequencies, Audyssey will correct and give hotter higher frequencies. Better high frequency response would come from using a more spread calibration pattern, at the expense of SS&I.

Treating a room, as you have, without designing the treatment specifically to address the measured acoustical problems in the room, can mislead you into the exact frustration you are experiencing. That is not usually the case, but it is certainly very possible. That possibility, along with the possibility of your calibration pattern just happens to catch another unlucky break along a way and has Audyssey emphasizing high frequencies... well, it is just not your lucky day. This is conjecture based upon minimal information.
 
Wayne I too have experimented many many times, writing everything down and always getting better to worse results.

Can you elaborate a bit on why you like just ONE measurement more than 3/4 or more please, Im very interested in your thoughts?

What I find with all my experiments is actually the bass seems cleaner for me with just one measurement then audyssey turned OFF!

I find every time no matter what positions I test for XT32, when I engage it the treble is too bright for my likings and the bass is coloured or distorted someway. I will try to explain.... With EQ engaged the bass notes seem to be extended and run for longer than what they should, which makes the bass sound wrong... Without EQ the bass notes stop BANG in their tracks, none of the extension, no distortion, its clean, big and smooth in all 12 seats...

I keep trying to use EQ as it almost seems like a religion that one should follow, but still after hundreds and hundreds of EQs, reading every forum on the planet about Audyssey I cant get it to sound good in my cinema!

Do you think this is true for some rooms?
I use it in my lounge room that's furnished with the normal things and its fine, better on...
My cinema is a very different room with lots of bass trapping, and acoustic treatments. Seems od that a room that's more perfect for acoustics should sound worse with it on than off... When a lounge room with normal acoustics should sound better with EQ turned on...:rolleyesno:

Interested in your thoughts????
Murray, you have been at this for so long, it is hard to believe that you are having these problems. Have you posted a comprehensive set of measurements from your home theater anywhere? Poor results must be reflected in the measurements, either bass ringing in the waterfalls, ragged frequency response, or something.
 
Dirac Live seems to have solved the problem. The review of the nanoAVR DL looks at the question specifically. The first mic position needs to be at LP Center, and handles all the timing and L/R frequency response matching needs, and the other mic positions can be randomly spaced around the seat area (no symmetry or careful spacing required) and their "average" gives the proper frequency response profile. Easy as pie and gives superb, no-compromise results. Seriously, works like a dream, satisfies the critical needs of the LP and helps you minimally compromise overall FR if you wish to accommodate other seat positions.
I disagree somewhat with your comment that the remaining eight Dirac measurement positions can be randomly spaced. In the user guide for my DDRC-88A, and using the "single chair" measuring approach, the user guide specifically states that remaining measurements should be taken on the circumference of a 1M-diameter circle and that the height of the mic should be varied up and down by 1ft over the measurements. While Dirac's web site is not quite as specific as the MiniDSP user guide, they do recommend varying the mic position, horizontally and vertically, and specifically advise against "tight mic positioning".

I absolutely agree, however, that excellent results with Dirac do not seem to be quite as dependent on mic positioning as does Audyssey. In the numerous Dirac calibrations I have done over the last six months, I have never experienced a "bad calibration". I can't say the same for my Audyssey calibrations, which were done with the Pro kit.
 
....While Dirac's web site is not quite as specific as the MiniDSP user guide, they do recommend varying the mic position, horizontally and vertically, and specifically advise against "tight mic positioning".
Should that particular recommendation be generalized? The Dirac user manual for my Emotiva XMC-1 states that the pattern should be tightened for a reduced listening area. It further urges the user to follow the on-screen mic locations, which can be viewed orthogonally or obliquely, but without dimensions. To be fair, Dirac Live LE and Dirac Live Full are customized to run on Emotiva hardware, so it may therefore be optimized for tight mic patterns.

If you're interested, advantages of emptying the stack of all but one mic position have been discussed here.

....In the numerous Dirac calibrations I have done over the last six months, I have never experienced a "bad calibration".
Excellent repeatability! Yet others have obtained questionable results. For instance, the default (and only) XMC-1's Dirac house curve yields aggressive treble, annoying sibilance, and anemic bass to these ears. Further, imaging suffered. Both conditions occurred regardless of mic pattern. I anted-up for the full version to achieve customizable house-curves and windowed frequency processing. Using the latter to bypass filter generation for frequencies above about 10kHz, improved imaging was realized, especially with tight mic patterns. Subsequent trials revealed that imaging remained independent of house curve manipulation.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I disagree somewhat with your comment that the remaining eight Dirac measurement positions can be randomly spaced. In the user guide for my DDRC-88A, and using the "single chair" measuring approach, the user guide specifically states that remaining measurements should be taken on the circumference of a 1M-diameter circle and that the height of the mic should be varied up and down by 1ft over the measurements. While Dirac's web site is not quite as specific as the MiniDSP user guide, they do recommend varying the mic position, horizontally and vertically, and specifically advise against "tight mic positioning".

I absolutely agree, however, that excellent results with Dirac do not seem to be quite as dependent on mic positioning as does Audyssey. In the numerous Dirac calibrations I have done over the last six months, I have never experienced a "bad calibration". I can't say the same for my Audyssey calibrations, which were done with the Pro kit.
Jerry,

As always, you have done your homework. I always appreciate your comments and occasional nudges to keep me and other posters honest and accurate.

When I suggested randomness in the mic positioning for Dirac Live, I was remembering Flavio's (of Dirac Research) wording in this post, commenting on an earlier review, where he stated:

"We recommend that the microphone positions are spread out as "randomly" as possible within the measurement region and that the measurement region is not too small."

I agree this is worded a bit differently than is found in the Dirac Live documentation.

Again, thanks for the feedback.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
I think the key point to be made about mic placement for Dirac Live calibration is that it is quite flexible, after that first critical LP position, and tends to be very forgiving.

I recently re-read some of the deep background info on the Dirac Research web site, and it is worth noting that Dirac Live's algorithm is designed to provide robustness in the way correction is applied, and that data from each point is analyzed multi-dimensionally (my term) to determine which parts of its data should be applied and in what way for effective correction that preserves frequency response and phase information critical to soundstage & imaging (SSI) at and close to the LP, while correcting frequency response and impulse response where it can be done without disrupting the sound somewhere else in the listening area. The approach suggests the benefit of having a "rich and varied" set of data points to work with, again hinting at some amount randomness in mic positioning to achieve it.

The takeaway, as far as I can interpret from this, is that even if one follows a somewhat set pattern like in the diagrams that accompany the application and documentation, the placement is not critical, and even benefits from some randomness in that placement. My own best Dirac Live calibration, with which I have been listening for close to 2 weeks, made use of a purposely very random pattern for the points away from the LP "center," as I wanted to stretch the idea to the max.

I see no harm in following the pattern suggested in the documentation, only suggesting for the sanity and enjoyment of the user through the setup process - and for the richer and more varied data set that will result - that the tape measure and laser distance finder be set aside after that first critical point and placement be done quickly and with eyeball estimates, rather than with painstaking spacing measurements that many are used to.
 
Jerry,

As always, you have done your homework. I always appreciate your comments and occasional nudges to keep me and other posters honest and accurate.

When I suggested randomness in the mic positioning for Dirac Live, I was remembering Flavio's (of Dirac Research) wording in this post, commenting on an earlier review, where he stated:

"We recommend that the microphone positions are spread out as "randomly" as possible within the measurement region and that the measurement region is not too small."

I agree this is worded a bit differently than is found in the Dirac Live documentation.

Again, thanks for the feedback.
Thanks for the response, Wayne. And I certainly appreciate the effort you have spent in your analysis. I think it is interesting that the mic placement guidelines vary slightly, depending on whether you are looking at Dirac's recommendations, Emotiva's recommendations, or MiniDSP's recommendations. I think all agree that the order of the placements is not critical, and I believe Dirac and MiniDSP agree that "narrow" for a single chair is a 1M-diameter circle, and that varying height is important.

It's always interesting to hear the experiences of others, which is what makes this forum valuable.
 
Thanks for the response, Wayne. And I certainly appreciate the effort you have spent in your analysis. I think it is interesting that the mic placement guidelines vary slightly, depending on whether you are looking at Dirac's recommendations, Emotiva's recommendations, or MiniDSP's recommendations. I think all agree that the order of the placements is not critical, and I believe Dirac and MiniDSP agree that "narrow" for a single chair is a 1M-diameter circle, and that varying height is important.

It's always interesting to hear the experiences of others, which is what makes this forum valuable.
Hi Jerry. I have been a lurker on this forum for longer than I can recall, but can't remember ever having posted before (no special reason - I am trying to keep my forum activity under some sort of control that's all). I'd add to this great discussion that I too have found that I get a stunning DL calibration when I take great care over the first mic position but then more or less randomly place the mic for the remaining 8 positions. This started because I cannot follow the user manual properly here: if I put the mic 12 inches below the first position, it is so low that the seat backs obscure its line of sight to the surround speakers. Clearly, that is not going to give a good result, so what I did was take the initial position, then use 4 positions about 8-10 inches higher, more or less as per the manual, with the remaining 4 positions just 'dotted' about the area around the chair. This way, every position gave a good line of sight to every speaker.

I am not saying this is the best way, or the only way, just adding another data point to the discussion and confirming that one does not need to slavishly follow the diagram in the user manual (or on screen). The next time I calibrate I will try using 8 very random positions and see what, if any, difference I get. The good news seems to be that a good cal results every time and there is no need to be as slavishly subservient to the demands of mic positions as seems to be the case with Audyssey, where, as you know, I tried to replicate the 'known good' mic positions to the millimetre for each cal. I am immensely relieved to be free of such strictures!
 
...I see no harm in following the pattern suggested in the documentation, only suggesting for the sanity and enjoyment of the user through the setup process - and for the richer and more varied data set that will result - that the tape measure and laser distance finder be set aside after that first critical point and placement be done quickly and with eyeball estimates, rather than with painstaking spacing measurements that many are used to.
I've gravitated toward this method, and oh what a relief it is!

Thanks for the response, Wayne. And I certainly appreciate the effort you have spent in your analysis. I think it is interesting that the mic placement guidelines vary slightly, depending on whether you are looking at Dirac's recommendations, Emotiva's recommendations, or MiniDSP's recommendations. I think all agree that the order of the placements is not critical, and I believe Dirac and MiniDSP agree that "narrow" for a single chair is a 1M-diameter circle, and that varying height is important.

It's always interesting to hear the experiences of others, which is what makes this forum valuable.
Better said than I !
 
....I too have found that I get a stunning DL calibration when I take great care over the first mic position but then more or less randomly place the mic for the remaining 8 positions. This started because I cannot follow the user manual properly here: if I put the mic 12 inches below the first position, it is so low that the seat backs obscure its line of sight to the surround speakers. Clearly, that is not going to give a good result, so what I did was take the initial position, then use 4 positions about 8-10 inches higher, more or less as per the manual, with the remaining 4 positions just 'dotted' about the area around the chair. This way, every position gave a good line of sight to every speaker.
Also better said than I. Aside from measured vs free mic locations and aside from broad vs. tight mic spacings, I've not experimented with above vs. below the seat back. Dirac has done an very good job at improving my surround experience, but I think it can get better using your method. I'm anxious to try your above-the-seatback pattern for better line-of-sight to my highly compromised surround speaker positions. It will be interesting to see if Dirac can improve the surround effects while retaining SS&I. I realize there's only so much DSP can do, so starting with the best relative speaker positions is important, but not all of us can position our speakers in prime locations (sigh).
 
Also better said than I. Aside from measured vs free mic locations and aside from broad vs. tight mic spacings, I've not experimented with above vs. below the seat back. Dirac has done an very good job at improving my surround experience, but I think it can get better using your method. I'm anxious to try your above-the-seatback pattern for better line-of-sight to my highly compromised surround speaker positions. It will be interesting to see if Dirac can improve the surround effects while retaining SS&I. I realize there's only so much DSP can do, so starting with the best relative speaker positions is important, but not all of us can position our speakers in prime locations (sigh).
Agree totally with your last observation there. I just started from what seemed obvious to me - that if the mic doesn't have a really uninterrupted line of sight to every speaker, then the result is pretty much guaranteed to be sub-optimal. After all, my ears have a clear line of sight to every speaker ;) In my room, with my high-back cinema chairs, this requires me to raise the mic quite a bit over and above the initial mic position (which is with the tip of the mic just above the MLP seat back - not quite where my ears go, but again, required if clear line of sight is a priority). Then, as I say, I completed the final 4 measurements 'randomly' around the seating area, but always making sure that the mic can 'see' all the speakers. It may be a compromised method, but then my HT is a set of compromises anyway, as many are. The bottom line is that I have better sound right now than I have ever done before.

As I am a newbie here, perhaps I should say that I am a very experienced user of Audyssey and Audyssey Pro and my current system is an Atmos 5.2.4 setup. Main speakers are M&K S150, surrounds are Tannoy Di6 DC (chosen for their good nearfield characteristics and coherent phase - my room is very small and the surrounds are closer than I'd ideally like) and the overhead speakers are Tannoy Di5 DC (chosen for their very wide dispersion - as per Dolby recommendations - and their power handling capabilities for my -5dB below cinema reference movie listening). Subs are dual Seaton Submersives in a Master/Slave arrangement. Amplification is 'adequate' for my purpose ;)
 
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